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Complexity of Toilet Paper
The podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stuck. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, we are here to help you ROLL with it and make life a little less complicated- one conversation at a time. So, come join us in the Stall!
Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. Any opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not reflect the views of any organizations we may be affiliated with. We’re not your therapists, lawyers, doctors, or plumbers , just a few folks talking it out with a roll of humor and a splash of real life. Please don’t make any major life decisions while on the toilet… or at least, don’t blame us if you do.
Show Credits:
- Show open music by RYYZN, https://beacons.ai/weareryyzn
- Roll Up music by AberrantRealities
Complexity of Toilet Paper
Episode 2: Uncovering Our Shared Pain: How Childhood Losses Shape Our Adult Complications
Grief doesn't come with an instruction manual. Neither does the aftermath of losing someone during your formative years.
When hosts Phyllis, Mark, and Al gathered in-person, they discovered a profound connection they'd never discussed before—they all lost parents at young ages. This shared trauma became the foundation for a raw, vulnerable conversation about how early loss shapes our adult tendencies toward overthinking and complicating our lives.
Al shares losing his father at five created a lifelong pattern of perfectionism driven by fear of letting people down. Phyllis reveals how her mother's death when she was fifteen left her unable to trust her own decisions without external validation. Mark, who lost multiple family members including both parents by his early twenties, explains how he filters choices through an impossible question: "Would mom and dad be proud of me?"
The conversation weaves through poignant metaphors—an empty toilet paper roll forcing immediate action, a lobster needing pain to shed its shell and grow, a storm that clears only when you keep driving through it. Each illustrates the same truth: complications often arise when we try to bypass necessary pain rather than walking through it.
This episode strips away pretense to explore how childhood grief manifests in adult behavior. The hosts offer wisdom gained through decades of processing: there's no timeline for healing, the only way through grief is through, and what seems like endless complication often stems from unprocessed pain.
Whether you've experienced significant loss or simply find yourself overcomplicating decisions, this conversation offers a compassionate roadmap for moving forward. As Mark reminds listeners, "Don't feel like you have to do this by yourself—we're all in the same boat."
Sometimes, I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated. Welcome to the Complexity of Toilet Paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate or just get stuck. I'm overthinking, I'm over, I'm overthinking. Touch down for the toilet paper Through honest conversations, unexpected insights and a whole lot of humor. Your hosts, phyllis Martin, mark Pollack and Al Emmerich, are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time, that's right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity, speaking of which it's time to enter the stall, put the lid down or not, depending Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh worry not, dear friend, it's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good mid paper.
Speaker 2:Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good midday, good minyana-ish, I mean what do you say when somebody like when you're doing a podcast and anybody could be listening at any time? I guess you just say hello.
Speaker 3:I was going to say a simple hello.
Speaker 2:Yeah or howdy. Or hey there, hey there, what's up? Any one of those?
Speaker 4:probably would work just fine. I mean we could overcomplicate it and make sure we hit every time zone.
Speaker 1:Which is exactly what we're doing. That's cool.
Speaker 3:That'd be a good way to start, yeah.
Speaker 2:Is it hello?
Speaker 3:Hey, how are you? Howdy partner, good day to you. I like that and the howdy partner and then we'll just have to find out what, what, what countries are our?
Speaker 4:our listenership is in, and then, and then we just need to learn some additional languages, like ciao, you know, hola shalom shalom, shalom, very good, very good, yeah, well now that we've got in mind
Speaker 2:that we've solved that. Um, I want to say hello, and how are you all doing? But I want to give our wonderful friends and the people listening from all over the global universe of the world, as well as maybe extraterrestrials who may be tapping in here, see Mark, phyllis and Al speaking in fourth person right now. We all got together the weekend before we were recording this particular episode and it was our first gathering, meaning in physical space, with one another. Mark and I have been in the same physical space. Phyllis and I have been in the same physical space. Phyllis and Mark had never even met each other except via Zoom or well, in this case, our recording methodology, descript or whatever it's called. Anyway, inside our stall, yeah, we went inside the stall and we spent a day and a half together and, man, we punched through some stuff, but we thought hard, we played hard, we made decisions, we stopped ourselves from overcomplicating and then we recomplicated. I want to know how you guys are doing.
Speaker 4:I'm still trying to recover. Quite honestly, that was, that was a lot in a day and a half and uh, it, it, yeah, we. I think that if you've been listening to the show and you're in love with the episodes, man, with the stuff that we came up with, you are going to absolutely love the next tranche of stuff that we put out. It's going to be incredible. I I cannot wait to start diving into all these subjects.
Speaker 2:I really can't like I'm giddy I'm the same way I just was was like I was so exhausted. So, Phil, what you don't know is that Mark and I, on the way home more from a personal standpoint which we should just start a separate podcast which we could do two years worth of content from the four hours we were in the car. We could do two years worth of content from the four hours we were in the car. But I will say this, On the way home, we had already exhausted all the brain cells for the podcast. But it was like God was in the backseat with his hand on me and his hand on Mark's shoulder, saying all the things that are the pains in front of you right now, the challenges in front of you, and you know some of these.
Speaker 2:Obviously, Phil, it was like he was shepherding the conversation and Mark was just his apostle. It was incredible. I mean, no, I'm not joking, I am not, I know I'm. You can say shocker, I know I'm melodramatic at times. Go ahead, you no, not at all Unheard of oh my.
Speaker 3:Unthinkable.
Speaker 2:Unspeakable. I would actually give you guys like a five on the sarcasm there. I thought it was going to be like closer to an eight or ten. Anyway, it was this. So that was its own incredible experience, which just capped off this. But the ideas, the energy, but also watching you two other than doing it in the show, seeing you two together, was such a joy. And, phil, you're an amazing host.
Speaker 3:You threw it down, girl. Thank you, thank you, kind sir.
Speaker 2:You and Tim, we are going to stay there as much as we can. Mark and I decided All the time.
Speaker 4:In fact, we'll be there Friday, we'll be there Friday.
Speaker 3:Be there Friday.
Speaker 4:Yeah, whatever you, that pork loin that you made was fantastic.
Speaker 2:Food's good Drinks, good Beds good, and so much toilet paper all over the house.
Speaker 3:All over Okay here's a question when did the two extra pillows come from?
Speaker 4:Mark, in the room you were in Were there, four in there when you got there yeah, were there really there.
Speaker 3:When you got there yeah, were there really, there was tons of pillows.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I was all surrounded and cozy, what yeah?
Speaker 3:I went in the other day and I was like, where did the other two pillows come from?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't Mark did you go out in the middle of the night?
Speaker 3:BYOP baby, bring your own pillow no, all right, good, good, no I just.
Speaker 4:I just thought you were a superb host and was like oh man, I'm gonna make this bedroom like an airbnb or something. It was family, it was great yeah, we always say literally I literally now have my house for sale.
Speaker 2:I am moving in, so I just come on, yeah, and so what do you? What are you thinking, phil, like how did you wake up on Monday?
Speaker 3:Well, let's do this. So I was obviously really happy to be in the space all together and mark like a gift just to be with you right, Like to physically be with you, Because it's so different than being over the zoom or over this Um, and I felt like we had gotten such clarity over direction and just honed in on what we're really trying to do here and why. Equally as important. So that was great and and like fun, but, you know, emotionally exhausting. I mean there's just a lot that goes into doing that when you spend a day and a half with people just hammering it through and then Saturday night you all left Saturday. Saturday night was Seder number one. Sunday night was Seder number two and I had the gift of going to my rabbi's house, but it was the full Monty Seder. So I got to his house, Tim went to at eight 30 and got home at one in the morning.
Speaker 3:So I am still recovering from like uh, tim said it best last night. He was like from like you guys got here Friday, so like from Thursday night through Monday night we've been going pretty hard. So yeah, um, but all good stuff, like all nothing, not a single thing to complain about.
Speaker 2:All magnificent a good Passover beautiful Passover, um yeah all is all as well.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's right. Yeah, um, I do need to admit to you. Well, first, let's tell the wonderful people that are living their life while we're recanting ours. You, if you're just joining us for the very first time, while this is only audio, each of us commits to bringing our own roll of toilet paper to the recording. We can see each other, and if anybody thinks there's some some shit going down that shouldn't be, well, we can call you out and uh, with the toilet paper. I, however, realized just a moment before this show that I was empty. There is like one.
Speaker 3:You it's barely a piece people. I'm gonna take a picture please don't I'm gonna take a picture right now.
Speaker 2:Actually, I'm just gonna screenshot this. So here we go that way. I'll put it that way. We can put it in the show notes. So stand by, here, we're going to take our squad shot. Here we go, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Hold up your toilet paper.
Speaker 4:Okay, I missed that one.
Speaker 3:You did miss that one, I did, that's all right.
Speaker 2:That's all right, that's okay that's okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's either way. So yeah, there it is, mark, good mark. You look like you've seen something horrible and I look like I'm smelling something really bad.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, that is pretty fun that was great, that was good all right.
Speaker 2:So the whole whole theory and the reason I'm telling you that is that at some point I'm going to explain what this means. Actually, no, I'll just say it now. When we get to the end of the roll of a toilet paper, it actually is a metaphor for what we most need to do to get through the complexity and the complications of life, Because when you're at the end of the roll of toilet paper, you don't have any other options. You may have a short-term option of getting some paper towel or a napkin Tissue. That's tissue that's not comfortable over long-term. You have to go to the store and you're going to make it a priority to go get some damn toilet paper, and so it's not like you can sit there and go. Hmm, let me ponder this.
Speaker 3:I feel like Mark would ponder it and come up with something that we are unaware of to substitute for toilet paper. It's a distinct possibility, but I hear you out and I agree.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to roll out a really good metaphor You're rolling out good. Thank you. So we all sat and decided a while back that we wanted to really dive into something that really is the root of this show, which is our shared pain, and it's the shared pain of our own. Why are you laughing, did you hear?
Speaker 4:Phyllis's sigh. She's like, oh, of our own, why are you laughing?
Speaker 2:did you hear phyllis's size? She's like, oh this. So we started this idea, this show, because we know we complicate things ourselves, we know that life is complex. Each, each one of us our jobs, personally, professionally, our missions are is to help other people and their lives get better in some way. And yet we keep standing in our own way.
Speaker 2:And so this whole show's framework is how do we bust this apart? How do we give people license to realize that they can uncomplicate their life, decomplexify, and that the people that we meet, the stories we share, they're designed to help offer a true view into the world of? Let's just make things a little more simple. But we never really sat and talked about what's behind this, and we didn't practice this. We just said, hey, let's talk about our shared pain. None of our shows are are rehearsed, or you know, we don't sit, we we just plop an idea and say, all right, let's go investigate this. So shared pain is the theme of of this show and I guess maybe, I don't know, does one of you have a question that you want to kick this off?
Speaker 4:that's a good question to ask um. Does one of you have a question that you want to kick this off? That's a good question to ask Um, I, I don't know. I mean, we've talked about our shared pain, I think in a previous episode, maybe at a high level of that. We had it and, and, and I think one of the things that hit me this weekend and I don't know if we talked about it on our on our intro show or not was the fact that we all lost parents at a young age and, um, I, I think that that, to me, is a start of a of a shared pain that is unifying, and that our listenership may have also experienced the loss of a parent or loved one when they were young. And I guess my question would be to the both of you what was it and how do you? What was that loss, loss, and what's one thing that you gained positively from that loss?
Speaker 3:yeah, sir, what was the first part of the question?
Speaker 4:what was the loss? Who did you lose? And, and, and what was one positive thing that came from that loss?
Speaker 2:I can answer that because I've spent time on this, okay, and it's always come back to the same. I lost my dad when I was five. We lived in San Diego, california. He had had a number of heart attacks in his life, apparently, but this one was a massive like gone, gone, gone. He apparently came back and they saved his life and he died again. Saved his life, died again.
Speaker 2:That's the story I always knew and that's important to me because it seemed to me like he didn't quit, like he kept trying to come back, him trying to come back, and that always stuck with me. And when I was a kid, I probably embellished the story. You know, I don't really know how many times he actually came back. I probably told people 10, whatever, just because you're a kid and he's my dad. But he died when I was five. And so the question is, what good came out of that versus how did it impact you in the sense of like, what's the story? There's so many great stories and so many great people stepped into my life, but the thing that I learned was that people really do want to help you. People really do want to help you. The good that came out of that was my ability to learn to ask for help, and to learn and realize that people do want to help.
Speaker 4:Now, al, did you realize that at five? Or was that something that later on in life, when you looked back, you're like, wow, all of these people stepped in Like when, when did that happen for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it, it, it started in stages, uh, leading up to me becoming a father. Um, because my, my first wife, uh, had two kids, uh, dawn, and you know I stepped into being father but they weren't quote, unquote, my kids, even though they very much were my children, right. But I always used to ask, like what happens if I go Right, and now there was other people and all that. But I had kind of become a major figure and so I realized at that point this connection to when I was a father and then when I lost my own. But, honestly, the sink of it all didn't come to me until I started preparing my keynotes.
Speaker 4:And did that? Did that that those things that started sinking in did, did that start forming complications in your life?
Speaker 2:Say that again.
Speaker 4:So, based on the past hurt that happened, you saw a positive and the positive was you learned that people come into your life. People genuinely want to help, people want to support you, but it was a stared effect, Like at five. You don't really get that. There's just all of a sudden a whole bunch of people in your house and you're like why are you here? Curious as far as how did that show up as potentially complications? Because you've seen the positive, all the people who wanted to help. But how did that?
Speaker 3:as you're writing a keynote.
Speaker 4:A lot of times, keynotes are to help other people, right, and so how did those complications show up to you? Or Phyllis? Am I asking that wrong?
Speaker 3:I think you're asking it backwards, I think he's saying things kind of synced out yeah, you're going to have to correct one of us, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:How I heard you say it was Al like things synced up for you in a positive way when you started doing your keynotes. What I'm curious I think, mark, what you're curious about too is your dad died when you were five. Is your dad died when you were five, and what was the impact of that death on your ability to complicate your life or not complicate your life Because loss or trauma at a young age? Well, I'll speak for myself, because I lost my mother when I was 15. She got Lou Gehrig's disease when she was, when I was 10, she died when I was 15.
Speaker 3:What I would tell you is that trauma, that loss and that upheaval at such a young age made it almost impossible for me to find a clear path period. So I had no um resources to be okay with decisions. If somebody didn't affirm in a decision, I would assume that I had made a bad decision. If somebody corrected, even in a kind way, a decision that I made, I would go to pieces over time, without you know, transparently, years of therapy that forced me to not be able to pull a trigger on decision-making. So I entered the workforce. I had a great, a great colleague, um, even later, even like in senior positions. Who would say, phyllis, pull the trigger. You know the old catchphrase don't let perfection be the enemy of good. I couldn't find my way out of a paper bag where that was concerned and that, to me, was the impact of a loss and an upheaval in my life at such a young age. The flip side of that is I wouldn't be who I am today because you asked like what, maybe what good came out of that as well. And my truth is, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you today without, um, the natural courses of things that happened in my life and as an adult. I and I really do believe this and I write about this I'm a hundred percent positive that my mother has brought me to um and brought to me the right women at the right time to carry me to the next leg of my journey and now, I would argue, the right men at the right time to carry me to the next leg or to journey with me. But you all know this, I'm sure, just even from watching me in our time together and now from our time maybe in Jacksonville together for a long time it's it was really hard for me to just not hem and haw around words to say exactly what I mean for fear of, and you can fill in the end of that sentence. Ultimately, I became strong enough to face the fear and say, no, I'm going to live my life. It's one of the reasons we shared when we came together.
Speaker 3:I don't want to leave anything undone. I don't want to leave what I think is mine to do undone, because I'm afraid I have some kind of innate fear which is old. It's a hangover from childhood. So I'll just finish with this. Even today, I was like oh, I got to tell somebody something. I don't want to do it, you know, mulling over every word. And then, right before you know I was getting ready to be with you. I was like what is wrong with you? Just say it, use your words, use your words. I have a lot of words. So what's the worst? That's going to happen. Right, you might have to have a hard conversation. Who cares? Do it right. The world's not coming to an end. I'm not getting kicked out. I'm not going to die. It's all going to be. All going to be okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow, that is a. That is the perspective Cause, it's funny, I immediately well, you asked the question from a positive sense, which plays to Al, because I always go positive.
Speaker 3:I always go negative.
Speaker 4:Well, no, it's not positive.
Speaker 2:No it's not that. So no, the answer again, though, is very, very clear to me and thank you for that, phyllis, because it really really put this into light and that is the fear of losing people, the fear of letting people down. The fear of losing people, the fear of letting people down, I mean it, it, it. It is something that that I have battled my entire life. Um, it's funny, people confuse confidence, drive, ambition, and, and they're all. They're all part of the same soup, um, and so I lost my dad at five, and I just knew he wasn't there. And I had another, another uh loss in my family that was. That was pretty significant. That really wasn't a loss, but it was temporary loss, and it came back.
Speaker 2:But during the period that it was gone, it was a very significant loss, and, uh, this, this relationship, was vacant to me for a long time, and it's got a great ending, but during that window, I established a firm fear that I can't, I don't want to lose something. So I'm going to try my hardest so I don't let somebody down, and the intellectual side of my brain could always process it, but the emotional side would drive ahead and it would force me to overthink things I don't want to. You know, let's put an extra two hours into that PowerPoint. That never needed that two hours. Because I'm going to be a perfectionist to make sure everybody's happy, the relationship be all things to all people. Don't let somebody down.
Speaker 2:And now I can finally say all right, those are not my choices, I mean, those are not my responsibilities. I can present Al to the world and loss is a natural order of things, as long as I'm being forthright, contributing positively, being honest, being self-reflective, bringing my critical thinking, emotional intelligence, self to the table, um, and I'm willing to be accountable. So the positive output of all of that, just to wrap it up, is my fierce personal accountability. You know it's not my fault, it does not exist in my vocabulary and I want to own the things that I can own just as much as I want to be there for people. But I'm not going to let them down, because I let them down and I can't control that and that was a burden that has taken, probably honestly, it's been the last year, I think it's still present, but I think it's, and you guys know that right. Just to even get here to this podcast and talk like this as openly is huge for the three of us.
Speaker 3:It really is. Hey, Mark, what about you? Same question back at you.
Speaker 4:So interesting. I used to. I'll tell you a story. So I had this condo and I had a date and I was going to make dinner for my date and it was the first time she had ever been over to the house. And so I'm finishing up making dinner and I had this wall of all these pictures and she's like oh, is that your parents? And I was like, yeah, there's. She's like, well, where do they live? I'm like, well, they're dead. And she's like, oh, who was in the air force? I'm like, oh, that's my brother. Oh, where's he live now? Oh, he's dead. Oh, who's the? Who are these people? They look like grandparents. I'm like, yeah, she's like, are you like in the witness protection? Or something like how is it that I? I was 24? She's like, how is it that you're 24? And like, everybody's dead. And I'm like I really can't tell you those things.
Speaker 4:Um, but all kidding aside, I I used to make up stories because it was so weird. But, um, I had my first loss at uh, at seven, my brother died and my grandfather died six months after that. And then I had a series of deaths all the way through my parents dead when I was 17,. Mom when I was 24, no, everybody. I mean, I have a one brother, who's who's left, and um, and and and, and two sisters and um, but, but really everybody's gone. Um, when my brother died and I don't really tell anybody this story I've told Al, but, uh, the fact that I'm actually sharing this on a podcast is odd for me. Um, but you know, if we're going to be vulnerable and real, um, when David died, I was seven and I remember my brother, steve, telling me this story later that mom prayed on the way home where'd you take my son? And there was a rainbow when we got home from the funeral, from one side of our house to the other, and a dove flew over our home. Wow.
Speaker 4:And the night before my father died, I always believed that David was my guardian angel. And the night before my father died, I remember taking a picture off my mirror of David. I used to keep on there. He was in the air force and I remember begging with him and I'm like please, please, don't come and take him, please, I'm not ready and I cried and I fell asleep and, um, when I woke up in the morning I didn't even understand why I was holding his picture. I'm like this is weird and I put it away back in the mirror and I'm like odd, okay, whatever, and I went on with my day and later that afternoon my father passed away and I didn't actually remember that story until until later, um, but he came in and told me that he was coming to get dad, and throughout my life two things have happened positively.
Speaker 4:One, um, it's, it's definitely given me a relationship with God that I don't think I would have had otherwise, because I don't think I would have made it through all of that without him in my life, and so that's a blessing too, which is kind of a blessing and a curse. Um, my parents were, um, successful furniture designers. Now, they went through a whole lot of drama and died, broke but, um, but they were magazine cover furniture designers and after they passed away, uh, I have lived a life which has been difficult of not wanting to disappoint them, and so a lot of the decisions I make I base it on would mom and dad be proud of me? Because I can't ask them, so I operate under that.
Speaker 3:So, mark, how does that? Because I'm sitting here. First of all, thank you for sharing that with all of us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you, that was a beautiful story, quite honestly, and one we'll hold. I'm just thinking about the three stories, like the little snippets right that we've just shared, and how. Maybe the more direct question is how, even today, as you live your life, really thinking about the driver of is what you're doing, making? Would that make your parents proud? How does that add or maybe not to how you overcomplicate anything, but probably lots of little things, which then makes them more complex than they actually need to be? What's the drive Like? What does that look like?
Speaker 4:And I would. I would think that maybe a number of our listeners share this, whether it's a actual death loss or a loss of a relationship. But it's overcomplicated my life a lot, because I've overthought almost every decision that I've had to make, Like is this the right decision? Is this? You know what? Have I thought about this? You know what would be the impact, what would be the image, you know. So, question after question after question, until I'm almost exhausted, um, because I've overthought the decision.
Speaker 4:So, while I'm quick in a business sense, I can make decisions quickly. I can see around the corner, I know where everything's going when it comes to my own personal life Totally different. So there's the business mark that can make big strategic decisions, and then there's the personal mark. Is like, I don't even know what I want for dinner. No-transcript, which is why I'm so grateful for this. Um, because I believe this is what I was meant to do. So, um, yeah, yeah. But I'm thankful to God that those things happen, Because I I heard someone say and I I can't remember who it was but if you're thankful for life and you're thankful for what God has given you, you can't just be thankful for the good things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's. Yeah, that's akin to when I talk about faith. We've all had this conversation. You don't get to only have faith when it's good, when it's convenient, right, when things are bad. Whatever your journey of faith is and I mean faith, just faith in something yourself or a higher power or whatever you can't just have faith when things are going great and then say when things are bad. You know, faith isn't like part-time and I think it's it's, it's the same thing. You're either all in or not. Um, I just sitting here listening to the three of us and I'm the other thing that all three of us are so careful of us are so careful Careful is not the word. What we're so aware of is serving one another, and I think in some weird way, it's a version of our losses. Like, I still don't want to let Phyllis down. I want Phyllis's voice to be heard, because I know that's important to her. It's not like I'm letting her down, it's just like you know.
Speaker 3:I want to. Don't let me down yeah. I won't.
Speaker 2:Well, I've already let you down so many times. I know I have.
Speaker 4:Well, if I keep in, count how many times I was let down.
Speaker 2:With one shred of toilet paper that maybe an ant could use. That was very disappointing, I think that you would be actually hugging me right now, because it was a darn good metaphor.
Speaker 4:It was good.
Speaker 2:But no, I mean, we run into it on the microphone sometimes. Oh, no, no, you go, oh, you go, you go, you go. And so that's a funny version and expression of not wanting to let the other person down to please others, of not wanting to let the other person down to please others. But by the same token, I want to ask the question because we want to be able to give you meaning you, the person that's listening to this it's important for us to share. When we do these shows without a guest, it's just us having our convo and we're hoping that it's something that is meaningful to you. But we're also really committed to like well, what did you learn? Which you're hearing, obviously, but also what's something we can take away.
Speaker 2:And that's what I'd like to ask. Is each of us have our own versions of loss, as we've now shared, and like duh, we're talking about a micro um cosm of the macro of our lives, but we're gonna again put these in the show notes blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if somebody's listening to this phyllis like, when it comes to loss, whatever that loss is, what is your, what's your advice? What's your advice to them in not complicating their life as a result of loss?
Speaker 3:I would say this based on my own experience. I just said this to somebody this morning there's only one, in my opinion, way um to be with loss Like. There's no let me say it differently there's no escaping grief. The only way is to go through, and it may take years to go through, um, and get to whatever is on the other side, which is different than what was on the side before you lost somebody or before something traumatic happened to you.
Speaker 3:But to push that aside, in my opinion, prolongs and creates some kind of odd chemistry that will continuously serve as a barrier and create more barriers and more barriers. Those barriers are what overcomplicate decision-making, life choices at the time and make everything more complex than it needs, than it needs to be. And so it's taken me a lifetime to literally a lifetime, to figure out and to make peace with. I will never be able to outrun death, death of somebody I care about, my own death, loss of a loved one that's not possible. So I've just found a different way to start to make peace with that, and because of that my life is not just richer, it's much less complicated. I do not have like the gray cloud of worry with me all the time I have it sometimes, for sure, but it is so much less than I than before. And the other thing I'll just share with you and I'm this is I'm sharing my like.
Speaker 3:My experience with that loss came in an ordinate amount of shame, and that shame colored my life for years and years and is directly tied to inability to make a decision or not trusting myself or feeling less than when the whole world around me is seeing somebody completely different. That juxtaposition is is like way more, I think, that any of us can really handle. So my hope for people who are listening is and I know we'll have notes like show notes and things we can share with people is to find whatever help looks like for you when you're ready for that, but not to minimize or let anybody else minimize the pain of loss and the trauma of loss, because it's real and it looks different for each of us, and that should be honored.
Speaker 2:I would say that, for me, my advice is at your own pace, because we all have our own way we process, but at your own pace. Walk into the fire of the pain. That may be prayer, that may be meditation, that may be journaling, that may be self-affirmation, that may be screaming from the top of Mount Kilimanjaro that you've just hiked in it because you had to do it. But tiptoe, walk, run, plunge into the pain, whatever pace you have to do. I was literally and I know we don't talk about time stamping this, but last night I did a friend of mine's podcast His name is Brett Blankenship, one of my very, very, very dearest longtime friends and Brett talked about his theory, and his theory was there's A, b and C, and, and you got to go from A and everybody wants to get to B, but they don't want to deal with C. You got to go from A and everybody wants to get to B, but they don't want to deal with C, and the idea being that you start with A, you next go to B and then you eventually end up at C.
Speaker 2:What I said to him was I said can I throw out another take on that? And the take was we so often are at A in the beginning and we want to get to C and we want to bypass B. But B is where you need to most be, and that's what we talked about. B is where the pain is, b is where the learning is, b is where the uncomfortable is, b is where the joy is. But we don't see those things because we're immersed in it, we're drowning in it.
Speaker 2:But it's that B that has to happen, that gets you to C, that B that has to happen that gets you to C. And so, whatever that version of that truth is for you, my advice is walk into that fire, address it, learn from it, put it down so that you have the knowledge to think and feel through what's going on in your life and there's no scorecard on it and and and set time. But if you don't to your point, phyllis, do that. You're just going to be stuck repeating the same old thing on a hamster wheel of a vicious pain and uh. But there's real light at the end of this if you, if you walk into it.
Speaker 4:So that's my advice so there was this rabbi who shared this story and I thought it was interesting. He said a lobster goes through life and when it starts growing out of its shell, it swims down to the bottom of the ocean and it sheds its shell and it hides for a while while the new shell comes on and the impetus of it going down and removing its shell and getting in a new one is pain, right, it's growing out of its shell and so it hurts. Well, he laughed and said if that lobster lived with us, it would take some uh, antidepressants and it would take some medication and it would feel no pain and therefore it would never lose its shell and it would never grow. So I've probably butchered that story, so if the rabbi's listening, I apologize, but I love his concept, which is in order to grow, you're going to, you're going to have to feel the pain and you're going to have to let go of that shell and you're going to have to grow a new one. And it's going to happen again and again and and that is a beautiful thing to know that you have survived your hardest days so far in that it is an opportunity, if you're willing to accept it, to grow, and we can either be wounded or and live that way, or we can become wiser, and it's our choice to live wounded or to live wiser, based on the things that we've experienced. And you know, it's a beautiful thing If you're sad, depressed, that someone is no longer in your life, whether it's death or whether it's a breakup or whatever, whatever that loss is financial, um, mostly a person, though. But if, if, in a sense of what I'm about to say, the sadness is because you loved someone and someone loved you, and how beautiful is that, how beautiful is the fact that you loved another person and another person loved you, and it's sad that they're not here, but if we can grow from that relationship, if we can learn from that relationship, what a great place to be. And and and, phyllis, to your story.
Speaker 4:There was a priest once told the story of there was a father and daughter driving through the rainstorm and, uh, it was pouring. You couldn't even. You couldn't see. You're driving, windshield wipers going full speed and the rain's coming down and you just can't see. And daughter wanted to pull off the highway and the father says no, just just keep going, slow and steady, just keep going. And it's raining, and she's scared and it's pouring and and people are pulling off to the side of the road because they can't see. And he's like, just trust, keep going forward and just keep driving. What about 20 or 30 minutes? Ring clears up and it's it's bright, beautiful skies and and she continues down the highway. Everybody else is still sitting in the storm waiting for it to pass. So keep moving forward. And yeah, that's kind of my thoughts on how to deal with all this stuff.
Speaker 3:So, interestingly, while you are well, we were not you all we were having this conversation. I looked down and I have like books stacked up, so all of the equipment will be where it's supposed to be, and I'm staring at this book called the well of being and very dear friends gave me this book when I turned 50 and in not a coincidence, I don't think, because it really is about um, there are multiple stories in the book, um, and I will recommend the book because it is um a way, one resource to look at life differently through different stories and find simplicity, the joy, the beauty in simplicity, because it just is not. Everything is complicated. We think it is, but in reality not so much.
Speaker 2:And I think we have arrived at the time that we should probably exit the stall. A couple of quick things. Name of that book again.
Speaker 3:The Well of being.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's in the show notes. Also, if you have experienced loss in your life, if there's something going on, whether it's personal personal loss, uh, you know, whatever. If you've experienced personal loss and it's just getting too much to you, there's, there's resources below in the show notes. Don't hesitate, reach out. There's phone numbers and links down there for you to get the help that you need, Um, at at any given time.
Speaker 2:I love that we came here with no, there was no script to the shared pain. We just said it's shared pain. It's I mean, in my mind I was thinking the shared pain of how we've all made things more complicated and completely blanked for a moment, Mark, that, yeah, we all realize and just to give everybody color, we had take, we were only sitting together for about an hour and a half or two hours up in Charleston, South Carolina, with Phyllis in her town, and we decided to go for a walk and we were talking and talking and we found this bench, beautiful bench, and we sat down and the next thing, you know, we all realized for the very first time that we all had this, this loss, this shared pain. But I didn't put two and two together. So, Mark, thanks for making this a beautiful show, brother oh thank you.
Speaker 4:Thank you, phyllis, it's uh it's uh, great, great that we're able to share this with everybody and and let people know you're not alone. I think that's I'd like to end on that, like for me. Uh, know you're not alone. I think that's I'd like to end on that, like for me. Uh, you're not alone. Don't feel alone. There are resources out there for you. Call a friend, they'll listen. Um, call two friends. Uh, whatever you need to do, see a spiritual leader, it doesn't matter. But don't feel like you have to do this by yourself.
Speaker 2:There's no shame in this, right, we're all in the same boat, and so please, if, if you're feeling further down than you feel like you should, please find a resource mark, I think we should actually just all call you you can, because between the bombs you dropped on me of great advice and sage advice on the car back, and you always have a story, you always have a. So let me tell you about the. I mean you're like the walking Reader's Digest almanac Bible. I mean if we were talking about potato chips?
Speaker 3:Don't ask, that's going to get all big and then we're going to have to deal with it.
Speaker 4:Look at it, it's already big enough. It's huge.
Speaker 2:No, I actually think he's actually having one of those little internal moments that's making him feel like vivaciously lovable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you got that.
Speaker 2:I mean, if we talked about, we should just drop, let's do word association with Mark Phelps one day. Let's just like I'll drop a word like potato chip, and then Mark will be talking and then he'll just go. So there's this story about this man in a chip.
Speaker 4:About this man in a potato.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly.
Speaker 4:Oh I actually do have one.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, no. We are out of here. We are leaving the stall only to return again and thank you for joining us, thank you for allowing us to be the the, the versions we are of each other and ourselves today and together, and thank you for stepping into the stall. This is the complexity of toilet paper did you say toilet paper?
Speaker 1:Everything complicated One big medieval mess.
