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The Complexity of Toilet Paper
This is a podcast about the search for simplicity and making life less complicated. A show that dives into both the everyday moments, as well as life's big stuff where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stuck. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of potty humor, puns, and hearty laughs - we are here to help you ROLL with it and make life a little less complicated, one conversation at a time. So, come join us in the Stall! Toilet Papewr not provided...yet!
Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment, growth, and informational purposes only. Any opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not reflect the views of any organizations we may be affiliated with. We’re not your therapists, lawyers, doctors, or plumbers, just a few folks talking it out with a roll of humor and a splash of real life. Please don’t make any major life decisions while on the toilet… or at least, don’t blame us if you do.
Show Credits:
- Show open music by RYYZN
- Roll Up music by AberrantRealities
- Stall Bridge music by penguinmusic
The Complexity of Toilet Paper
Jump, Sing, Believe: Three Friends Tackle Their Inner Saboteurs
Have you ever noticed how we complicate the simplest things in life? That's exactly what we're unpacking in this heartfelt conversation about the mental hurdles we create and how we eventually find our way past them.
Phyllis takes us on her journey of rediscovering her voice—literally. After decades of putting off singing lessons despite a lifelong passion for music, she reveals the moment she finally silenced her inner jury of critics and took the leap. Her powerful realization that "the things I have the most resistance to doing are the surest path to joy and happiness" becomes a touchstone for the entire conversation.
Mark vulnerably shares his fear of wasting potential and disappointing others. Through a beautiful analogy comparing action to water that activates watercolor paint, he explains how this podcast has become a vehicle for living more authentically and overcoming self-doubt. "The act of doing takes away the fears of this imaginary roadblock that stands in front of you," he observes, a truth that resonates beyond the recording studio.
Meanwhile, Al recounts his transformation from being paralyzed by a childhood fear of heights to eventually skydiving from an airplane. His story illustrates how focusing on the present moment rather than catastrophizing about potential outcomes can help us conquer even our most deeply rooted fears.
What emerges is a powerful exploration of authenticity, presence, and the courage to face our fears head-on. Whether you're contemplating a career change, creative pursuit, or personal challenge, this episode offers wisdom for simplifying the path forward and finding joy on the other side of hesitation.
Join us in the stall for this deeply human conversation—and stick around for "The Roll Up," where we tackle the pressing bathroom debate of "wadded or folded" with surprising candor. Your hurdles might look different from ours, but the principles for overcoming them are remarkably universal.
Sometimes, I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated. Welcome to the Complexity of Toilet Paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate or just get stuck. I'm overthinking. I'm over, I'm overthinking. Let's hear it for the toilet paper Through honest conversations, unexpected insights and a whole lot of humor. Your hosts, phyllis Martin, mark Pollack and Al Emmerich, are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time, that's right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity, speaking of which it's time to enter the stall, put the lid down or not, depending Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh worry, not, dear friend, it's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, even though even though that's the opening of the show, and we hear it. It doesn't get old.
Speaker 4:Well, I mean, it's only a couple of months old at this point, right? No, I'm kidding. It's great, it's a great opener.
Speaker 3:It is. It may suck in a couple of we may go.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that just needs to be changed.
Speaker 4:No, it's great, it's a great opener it is, it might, it may suck in a couple of we may go oh my god, that is just needs to be changed no, it's awesome how much fun that's us though so what if you, if you, were old enough to remember radio?
Speaker 3:yeah, it was this thing that people listen to they still have radio they do, they do. But uh, back in the radio days.
Speaker 1:Back in the day, they didn't wear shoes, they didn't have socks and they had to walk barefoot to the station.
Speaker 4:I rode a dinosaur to the station. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:OK, you really want to know what happened in radio back in the day. Here we go. People drank vigorously before their air shifts, smoked packs and packs of cigarettes, did numerous quantities of drugs. Um, there was, I mean radio at one point was the haven of crazy. It was like saturday night, live year one, over and over and and over again. Um, but but that's not what this show's about and that's not what the open was about. I was just simply saying that the production of the open brought me back to the old radio days, like when we did bumpers. I was a production director at rock one oh five in Jacksonville, florida and it was dropping in little sounders and music and bumpers and I think you all should be happy for the joy that I feel and that you can hear in my voice.
Speaker 1:Of course we're happy. Of course we're happy. But that's all I can think about. When you say that is laughing and Ruth Buzzy, like I can hear, like the little sound machines and the dwee and all that, that's all I can think of.
Speaker 3:Now you're sending me back in a time too.
Speaker 4:There we go.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 3:Well, by now you probably may know that our shows and episodes are a mixture of guests we bring into the stall with us, but also we like to just spend time, the three of us together, exploring some great topics and things of interest to us, and during one of our meetings we were just talking about our own hurdles and the topic of jumping out of a plane came up and a couple of other things.
Speaker 3:For me, it was jumping out of a plane because I'm deathly afraid of heights, and we all were like, hey, if we were able to overcome these big things, what were the things that were complicated to us before we knew we were really overthinking stuff? What was it that we were making so complex that we didn't realize we were doing it. And yet we got out of our way. And so we were like, hey, let's do an episode on overthinking the hurdle, and we could probably do 20 episodes on this. But yeah, that's what I wanted to unpack. Mark wanted to unpack and Phil said, oh my God, ok, if you pull me, dragging and screaming into your little vortex, I will go.
Speaker 1:Truth.
Speaker 3:OK, I've been talking way too long for this moment, so I'm going to pause. And Phyllis is bleeding from her nose and I think her eyelid is twitching, and Mark's normally gregarious smile is starting to actually fade like a rubber clown that's being burned. So, phil, let's start with you when you think about overthinking the hurdle, what is a hurdle in your life that you've overcome, and what was that like?
Speaker 1:So many hurdles. Mark, I just want you to know I was going to pass it to you first, because I feel like you never get to go first, but since Al asked me the question, I'm going to go ahead and go.
Speaker 4:I just won't go first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going first. So you know. So my life has been one big hurdle. It's a terrible thing to say, but I'm going to use a relevant example, and both of you know, because I've shared this with you before, that I recently started taking voice lessons because I love singing. I've always loved to sing and when I was younger I was in chorus and in theater and musicals and all of these things.
Speaker 1:And a couple of years ago like actually not a couple of years ago, my whole adult life I was always thinking you should take voice lessons, you should join a chorus, you should take music lessons, should, should, should, should, should and a million reasons. How will I find a teacher? What will that look like? Will I have enough time to do it? I don't want to have any time, just kind of no. And I can't really tell you because in hindsight, like all of those things seem completely overcomable, if you will.
Speaker 1:But a few years ago, like two and a half, I was at a book club and the woman sitting next to me is a singer here in Charleston, here in Charleston, and I just we just hit it off and I reached out to her like out of nowhere. I was like this is it. This is the sign that there should be no more procrastination on this. And I sent her an email and kind of told her the story and I said you know, I'm not asking you to be my teacher, I'm asking you for recommendations. And she emailed back right away and said let me just have one session with you. I'm not taking students, but let me have one session with you so I can get a sense of who you are.
Speaker 1:And we did that and I was truthful with her. I said you need to be straight up front, like if there's nothing to work with, you need to tell me that. If there's something to work with, you need to tell me that. And we talked. And then she said and we were over Zoom. She said I want you to sing something and I said I can't. And I said I've thought about it and I just don't think I can do it. And she said can you really not do it? And that was it. I said I'm going to turn off my camera because I don't want to watch. You watch me and in my head I'll think you're not watching me.
Speaker 1:And I made up a song totally out of nowhere. And then I turned back on the camera and she said of course, there's plenty to work with. Let me tell you what's good, and that was that I started singing. I started taking singing lessons. I walked into my first singing lesson. I said hi, my name is Phyllis Martin and I'm ready to sing, let's go. And that was that. That, literally, was it?
Speaker 4:So oh, go ahead Now.
Speaker 3:I see you've got the question forms.
Speaker 4:Go for it.
Speaker 3:What. Go back to that first meeting. She said meet with me. Yeah, was it? Your was your first inclination to say no and to cancel, or to cancel or to come up, no, why.
Speaker 1:No, because, like I said about doing this podcast, I didn't, I did not want to leave that part of my life undone. There was, and is, no doubt in my mind that I have a good voice. Is it great? No, Am I going to be a star? No, but I like to sing and I just needed to know and to build enough confidence to say I'm going to sing. And now the next step is I need to know enough songs to do a set. I may never do the set. I'll do the set for the two of you. I just need to have enough confidence and enough practice to do it. So there was never once she said it. I was. That was it.
Speaker 3:So where was the tipping point, though? Like where? Because if you think back to before, this is something that's been in your mind and then you made this jump. But then you made the jump because you just said very definitively oh no, no, I was going to do it. Can you track back to that tipping point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it was when I was leaving. It was kind of in the pocket of I was leaving one job and going to another job and I just had spent some time thinking about my life and that I'm had spent some time thinking about my life and that I'm not getting any younger and I just started asking myself, like what's the problem here? What are you so afraid of? What could possibly happen? The worst thing that could happen, the worst thing, is that I didn't do it. The next worst thing was somebody will listen to you and say you know what? There's really not anything to work with. And I knew in my heart of hearts that wasn't going to happen. I knew that wasn't going to happen and so at that point it's just a matter of for me. Did I have enough courage and enough humility and enough vulnerability to say I'm going to do this, I'm doing it, it's done?
Speaker 4:That's incredible. So I guess my question comes down to what was really your hurdle, because you shared a number of surface level things that we all say it's late, I'm tired, I got other things to do, blah, blah, blah. So did you ever identify what was really the thing?
Speaker 1:I think it's. For me, it's always the thing, so I'm going to say it this way. Maybe it makes sense, maybe it doesn't. Typically, the things I have the most resistance to doing are the surest path to joy and happiness, and I think the barrier is fear.
Speaker 4:So your complexity, you complicated it with fear.
Speaker 1:I think fear. I think I really was afraid. I don't think like I made up fear, no, no, the fear is real.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think that's the thing that a lot of people don't get either. Like, whether it's rational or irrational, fear is fear, and it's a real thing, um. But I'm just curious from a complicated standpoint, like how did fear complicate that whole situation for you?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, so the jury in my head, like I have a jury that lives up there. There's the as my friend Wanda says, there is a jury up there. There's the perfectionist, there's the critique, the critic, there's the naysayer, there's the fear monger and then there's the part of the jury, that's, you know, the tenacity and the hope and the joy, and somehow they all got to come to a decision up there about what we're going to do and when we're going to do it, yeah.
Speaker 3:And yet I love that analogy, that visualization of a jury in your head. That is brilliant, okay. So carrying that forward at some point, like okay. So you said earlier, like about five minutes ago, you said, oh, I knew there was something there. You said with great conviction that you had this belief that there was something to work with. So if you're, if you're telling the jury, what you're saying is I am innocent, I am totally innocent and there's nothing you can do. No matter what, I'm ready, I am innocent. And in this particular case, it's oh, I've got talent. And so I guess you kind of drowned out the jury at some point, or was it just the jury was still there. You were just like screw it, I'm going to risk what's on the other side.
Speaker 1:At some point I literally say these words to myself out loud Stop being so mean to yourself.
Speaker 3:Stop it. Wow, what a way to look at it. Like you're being mean to yourself by saying no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because I wouldn't say that to I, wouldn't say what I say to myself to my dearest friends. Why would I say it to? Myself, yeah Boy that's one to sit on.
Speaker 3:I don't know that I would repeat to other people what I've said to myself. Do you ever look at your journal and go? Man, I should probably this thing, not because it's gonna get me in trouble.
Speaker 4:I don't want people to know what I really thought, what I told myself in my quiet time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's not even about others. It's like oh no, no, it's. All right, so so singing. Is there another one? Anything else that you want to add to the, to the hurdle that you overcame?
Speaker 1:I think just getting to where I am and I feel like probably a lot of people are listeners, feel this way I think just getting to where I am is just the product of overcoming endless hurdles. Some are big and some are little. I just didn't come into the world. Well, maybe I did come into the world and it got, you know, messed for a variety of reasons, messed up for a variety of reasons, but I like, secure enough and confident enough to fly through things without overcomplicating them or without being afraid, or without thinking I can't, or without you know, whatever it to death. And I would say there's very let me think about that yeah, there's very little I've done in life where I haven't been afraid or unsure or lacking in confidence, but I've done it anyway. And I think maybe that's the thing you can be afraid and you can do it anyway, and you can do it anyway.
Speaker 3:Or perhaps you just don't view it. You don't view it as a hurdle Like I just this. This past weekend I was out for a walk with a very dear friend of mine, Kevin Cotton, and hopefully, Kevin, you're listening to this. If not, I'll make sure that you do, I'll pipe it through your house sound system 24-7. But Kevin and I were talking about a similar question of these hurdles and he was like, looking at these things he's done and I said, man, those are huge, those are huge accomplishments. You ought to really accomplish a lot to get to that point. He's like, yeah, but it's not. He's like I just had to do it, and for him the simplicity was I just had to do that. I guess he has a military background and so I liken it in some ways to that. You know, the mini military. They climb the hill, they do what they need to do, they get through what they need to do Cancer patients. You know other people that they get through what they need. They're like, well, hey, I don't have another choice.
Speaker 4:So it was just. It just had to be done. The noise goes away right Like if, if you've got a singular purpose and there's a, there's no other option. The noise fades away and you end up doing it.
Speaker 4:The problem is when it's it's not demanded of us we get in our own way and you get into your head about silly things like I don't want to sing in front of people. Well, that's, that's silliness, because why not Right, like it's no, no, no one's. No one's going to, you know, die because you sang in front of them. But but if it was life or death, you would sing without hesitation.
Speaker 1:But if it was life or death, you would sing without hesitation. And so we do, we put all these complications in front of ourselves if we're given options. Said that I am nothing, if not always, over prepared and my expectations of myself are off the charts, almost unmeetable, and so, um those, those are real barriers, um that I work around or through all the time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, because you don't want to not be perfect, you don't want to not be right, you got to get it done. You got to get it done. You got to deliver right. I mean, we all have some version of that, yeah.
Speaker 4:You think people have certain expectations of you that they probably don't have of you, but now you think they have of you, so you're going to go do that thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all right, mark, you want to go next? Do you want me to go next?
Speaker 4:I don't know, mine, mine's a mine's a little heavy. Why don't you? Why don't you go?
Speaker 3:Well, if I, mine's lightish and heavy If you, if you go, then we close on heavy. Are we okay to close the show on heavy?
Speaker 2:Well, we don't. I'm building this thing up into something that it's not so my Hold on. I'm complicating the complications here we just complicated it.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry. So there's an overarching theme, and if you've listened to previous shows, you know we've talked about our shared pain. If you go back to that one, you know you heard the story of how we all lost parents and other loved ones, and and one of the things that is one of my biggest hurdles is wasting my potential, and so it's not a specific thing, um, but it is overarching in my life, whether it's in a job that I'm doing or a relationship, or, um, this podcast, uh, I, I worry that I'm going to get left behind, uh, almost, uh, you know, and then I'm going to have to start over, and that that I'm not doing something to my fullest. Where I'm, I'm disappointing people and not living up to my potential. So I complicate things, believing that people have all of these expectations of me, um, I complicate things believing that, um, I probably am not. Uh, uh, uh, I don't have the ability. I think I do. I don't have the ability, I think I do, and so I.
Speaker 3:I then think well, gosh, I, I'm wasting my my time, effort and energy over this thing and I'm, you know, wasting my potential over here. So that's really where my hurdles come in is just overthinking a lot of the things that I want to do and putting these fake roadblocks there. Well, I think that falls for everybody. I mean, every single episode we've had touches that at some level. Yeah, of course. So my question is where did the awareness of this become, and what are you doing to get past the overthinking, knowing it's work in progress for all of us?
Speaker 4:Uh, I, I want to say, uh, this podcast, uh, is where, where? That just saying we're going to do it right. There's no more talk about it, there's no more planning of it, there's no more kicking the can down the road. It's we've decided, we're doing this thing and I'm not wasting any more time, any more potential, any more effort and energy overthinking it. We're just going to do it. And if people love it and resonate with it, awesome. And what we're finding is people love it and are resonating with it. So why waste any more time? Let's just continue to do it.
Speaker 1:And, and you know, Mark, that's contagious. So I'll use myself as an example, because you, you, you were all but saying that from day one, and and that has been through every meeting and conversation we've had, and I believe you and still do believe you, and you should know that's incredibly contagious.
Speaker 4:Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 3:Agree 100%. It's having ramifications and impact in my life, in the living moment, like as these words are coming out of my mouth and what, what, what I'm going through in my own life, um, I so inside baseball question if you're comfortable going there, yeah, let's do it. I have found that, in sharing that same pain mark, knowing that I'm fully capable, knowing what I'm capable of, knowing what I've achieved, having a support network, network around me, I've come face to face in so many ways with an execution issue, and some of that lack of execution goes back to what I've always thought was time management. It wasn't, it's really fear and replacing the activity that I should be doing with something that was easier because it made me feel better, okay, which is, like you know, seven years of therapy, consolidated like I've never done it before, and actually I am patting myself on the back on that one because that was really freaking good.
Speaker 3:But joking aside, I look at what we are doing with the show and some of the actions we're taking and the accountability that we're holding ourselves to, and I'm like, why aren't I doing this? In some of these other things in my life? I sometimes feel that this show is hey, listener, we're inviting you into the stall Now. You're actually sitting on the toilet with us. Sorry, I feel like, in doing this show, it's actually modeling some of the things I should be doing in other aspects of my life, based on what you just said, that this show is freeing you and helping you, and if so, well it is. Why. What about? What we're doing is helping you get past that hurdle?
Speaker 4:That's a really great question. I think it comes down to just action, right? The act of doing takes away the fears of this imaginary roadblock that stands in front of you. So it's I. I know I've used art a few times and I don't know why it keeps coming back into my head, but it's an easy way to describe things for me, for whatever reason. Um, have you ever painted with watercolor?
Speaker 4:okay if you don't put water on the brush and you just put the brush in the paint and you try to paint with it, you don't get anything on the canvas. The water that you put on the brush to get the paint activated is the action. And, and so in my head, us just doing the podcast and making that one commitment is a step. It's the action. Doing the podcast and making that one commitment is a step, it's the action. And then you take another action and another action and it gives you confidence to say, well, if I can do it there and I'm, I'm telling this, this group of people who listened to our show and who have written to us and say, hey, wow, this episode really changed my life, or this episode changed my perspective Then why, why am I not implementing those same actions in my own life?
Speaker 4:Why am I not believing the things that I'm sharing from the heart? And so then then you realize that it's your own mind playing tricks on you, saying, oh well, that's good for somebody else, not good for you. Um, someone else can accomplish that, but you can't, um, and and I think it comes to a point of like but look, I am doing those things, I am accomplishing those things. So if I can accomplish it here, then I can do it at work, and I can do that in my relationship, and I and I can tell those voices in my head that are trying to distract me or tell me I'm not good enough, or telling me that if I get to a certain point, people are going to leave. That's all garbage, and, and so this podcast is that water on the brush that goes in the paint. It's that action that you have to take in order to get to the next thing.
Speaker 3:So basically what Mark has said everybody is if you have a hurdle you can't get over, start a podcast.
Speaker 4:No, no, no, we don't need the competition, but what is? Your. I guess my point is like what's your?
Speaker 3:podcast. What is your podcast, right? What's yours? Oh, maybe that's the name of the show, sorry.
Speaker 1:Go ahead. Phil Mark, I really wanted to answer that question for you, which is completely not the right thing to do?
Speaker 4:I want to hear your answer of what I should be doing in my life.
Speaker 1:No, my answer for me, since I can't answer for you, but I really wanted to answer for you. So know that I'm answering for you, even though I'm saying that I'm not answering for you. I think I can't even remember the question you asked, but what came?
Speaker 3:It was just basically. What is the show? Allowing you to do better in your life, to overcome the hurdle?
Speaker 1:I think the way I was going to answer that for you, mark, was that the show is authentically you. You are your most authentic self doing this show. Authentic self doing this show, and the part about getting left behind or passed over, all of the other things. I'm definitely speaking for myself right now, but maybe you too is, because it's hard sometimes to find the match between who you are authentically, who you are human being and what you do human doing. And I really do have a hard belief that we are human beings first, and if there's any magic where we can be where the human being and the human doing really line up authentically, authentically, then that's it. That's like Mecca, that's's the thing, and that's why singing became so easy for me. In some ways, it's authentically who I am, it's why this has gotten easier over time. The safety and knowing authentically. Duh, yeah, let's do this.
Speaker 4:Um yeah, that's beautiful and and, and I think that really is where the complexity lives, right Is you're not authentically you in so many situations and so you're so far out of your comfort zone because it's not even really you who are operating. It's this falsetto, this fake, you know this, this fake.
Speaker 3:You know, or or you're not authentic in the term in, in the way you're approaching your own barriers.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, and, and, and in this case I'm using the word authentic and honest in the same bucket, right, but authenticity is an expression of honesty. Sure, um, you know, it's not some social media garb and language about being authentic, but yet the truth is, what is more successful for the long term in social media is the authentic voice of people when they're speaking real or or singing, or doing goofy stuff. You know, or singing or doing goofy stuff. There's a reason that America's Funniest Home Videos and bloopers and reels were so wildly popular because it was a moment captured that was truth and authentic. And I think that I mean, if this podcast continues to touch people and we're rooted in who we are authentically, then we will find our own path to success, whatever that looks like. But I love what you said, phil, because, mark, I've obviously we've all known each other. I've never seen you, mark, as comfortable as you are in this podcast, I mean.
Speaker 1:I shouldn't say never there.
Speaker 3:There are, I mean when you're. You know I referenced this, I think, in episode one or two, whatever it was like when we were taking the drive back from South Carolina and you were the ordained soothsayer as God was in the backseat going. You roll, mark, and you were just but seriously, when you were, dare I say, prophetizing but you weren't, but you were, you were really helping.
Speaker 1:He was Markletizing.
Speaker 3:He was. But but, mark, that's who you are Helping others figure out and feel better is who you are, it's it's who I am, it's who Phil is, and but we do it in our own way. Yeah, so actually, phil doesn't care about anybody, but she just wants to become. She is Pat Benatar, waiting to unfold into the masses. That's who, no. You do have a little bit of a Pat Benatar look, which is a total compliment, because Pat Benatar was one of my first crushes. I like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm hoping that most of our listeners in our demographic know who that is. Um mark, that was beautiful. Oh well, thanks. No, really, I mean that's. I mean wow, I. This is what I love about the show. We just don't know where it's gonna go without just letting it wildly run off to a goose chase.
Speaker 1:Um al you're up yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I've got two and honestly, I'll start with the more complex one, because it really ties to what Mark just said and for me it is the hurdle still before me. But I feel like, literally, if you looked in my journal and you saw a recent post, it has to do with belief, and so there's two things. The first it's the same action, but different reasons. Many, many years ago, after losing my mom, after going through a divorce, after going through some other family turmoil, going through a divorce, after going through some other family turmoil, my question of faith and my belief of faith became questioned for me and I realized a truth that A the only path to faith was choice. And it was one of the few things in my life that I could control. I could make a choice to have faith. And I realized logically well, wait a minute. If, if that's the case, then I can't choose when faith is convenient. That's not fair. I can't just say, oh, good things are happening, oh, thank you, I have faith. And faith, you know, for me is God. Yes, but faith could be anything, but the bottom line is faith in God, faith in myself, faith in others. It's a choice. It's not like a switch. You flip on and off, agreed, right. And so I realized in that moment OK, I just have to make the decision. And there was no overthinking it anymore. There was no what ifs and all this. It was just no, I make this decision and it doesn't. And what's hard about that is I speak it and even then it's like, oh, I'm supposed to give you some big, long soliloquy of a story behind what? No, it's just that fricking simple.
Speaker 3:The second thing is belief, which is different than faith. In this context, they're very close brothers, sisters, whatever if you want to give them any gender at all, but it's belief. It's like you make a choice to believe. We have every reason today in our world to not believe in things and to not have faith, whether it's political, social, economical, whether it's rewatching history play out in whatever. Macabre. Is it macabre or macabre? It's macabre, right? Yeah, macabre, is it macabre or macabre? It's macabre, right, yeah. Whatever macabre environment you're looking at, because in the other side of the coin is this beautiful moment that's happening.
Speaker 3:And so, again, like faith, if I'm going to believe that good things can happen, that I can't look at bad things happening and go, oh, I just don't believe. And so, as I look at Al, I go all right. When you're up against the wall and you're sweating about whether this is going to work or that's going to work, you just have to believe. And there was a time when I was like, oh, that's just pumping up bullshit, I'm just being, mr Al positive. Well, that's how I'm known, because that's who I am.
Speaker 3:I am a positive person and every single day, what do I do? I tell other people believe in yourself, believe in this. And that's why I created value mapping to help people actually have a framework, more than just a belief, to actually prove it to them, so they can document it and put it right in front of them, so they could see their value, touch it, hold it, articulate it, communicate it. And so, for me, the hurdle is to maintain belief in myself and belief that the path I'm on is going to take me where I need to be, which is very similar to what you've said, mark. I think it's just been a different path. So that's the first of the two. The second one's much easier.
Speaker 4:I think with. I think with that, though, what, what you try to accomplish, or you do try to accomplish, or, you know, you try to help people accomplish is going from belief to knowing Right, going from belief to knowing right. So belief is I. I have have this belief in something I can't see, feel or touch. I just, I just know that it's there, right, Like there's. No. I'm going to use the word proof, but I don't know if proof is the right word. With what you've, you've created out, it's, it's trying to help people. I think it's a little bit different than belief. It's taking people from belief to knowing. So you know, blue is blue, right, and so it's you know, and I, I would also say I think it's really important where people put their faith and their trust and their hope. I think that's really important, and when you put it into things that don't value you, then when people put their faith and belief into things that are fleeting, like things, you are going to be disappointed.
Speaker 3:Oh, my God, you just said something so powerful, Mark, Sorry I stepped in. Powerful mark, Sorry I stepped in, but if you struggle to believe in yourself, then the question becomes do you value yourself? To what extent do you actually value yourself?
Speaker 4:Do you trust yourself that you're going to show up? And and I think that that's a whole different question, even maybe even a different podcast topic of um you know, where are you putting that faith? And if and if and if, and if it's not in the right places, I can just tell you from my own, my own experience um, I have a strong faith in God. I and and and I have put my faith in other things, and what I consistently find is, when I put my faith in other things, especially things that truly have no value, those disappoint me in a way that then interrupts everything else that I'm trying to accomplish. So I think that's really a powerful thing that you brought up, al. I think that's an important realization, thank you, yeah, it feels good to work through that.
Speaker 3:My God, we should charge each other for therapy, right.
Speaker 1:All right.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to flip, I'm going to flip the lid and now I'm going to go to something that's. That was was in many ways, um, a more obvious hurdle. But as as you just spoke and as I was processing through this and listening to Phyllis with the singing, I'm like, oh my God, it all comes back to the same thing. All right. So I was deathly afraid of heights when I was a kid. I was in a jungle gym at the age of five. I fell. My teacher forced me to get back up onto the jungle gym. They believed that the only way I was going to conquer this fear was to go back up. And I went back up and I fell again, and I fell, and I fell a bunch of times and unfortunately the loop was never closed to where I found success, right. And so I was really afraid of heights, and so much so at the point that I was living in Phoenix, arizona, and I would. I wouldn't go on trips where we were hiking in the mountains, and if we did, I was strung against the back of the trail hugging the mountain and I just it was really, really bad. So I got into theater in college and we had to climb ladders and I was acting. And then I got into tech and, god bless, johnny pettigrew, our, our technical director, who was this amazing dude and he could climb like mount everest with like, uh, a cane and a and a boot strap and a buckle. That was it. I mean, he just could climb and he was, he was sensitive to the issue but he was also firm. He's like look, you do tech, you have to climb. But he's like, don't worry about getting out there, just. And he started me off on ladders and to the point that you were just making Mark, I, I needed proof and I built that trust. Great, great, great Was.
Speaker 3:By the end of my college years I felt like I, I, I could climb and I could move around, but I still had this fear of heights and I knew it. And people would be like, hey, let's go up to the I don't know, like I wouldn't go to rooftop bars, like I, I literally wouldn't go to rooftop bars and and we're doing Cross and Sword, it's the Florida State play, I'm a junior in college, this is 1988, and he purposely damn him, love him assigns me to the truss lighting which is on this huge three-story lighting tower outdoor, one small little shitty ladder up and I got to go up. And it's not enough that I got to be up there, because I actually was okay with that, but I had to get down on the grid light to the grid lights and change some of the things out and I said, johnny, I can't do that. He says, well, then you don't work this summer.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:I said just just put me on something else. He's like no, he's like I'll give you straps, we'll lock you down, but you're doing that. He's like I'll give you straps, we'll lock you down, but you're doing that. And he forced my hand and I did it and go ahead. Phil, you had a question.
Speaker 1:No finish, I'll ask it.
Speaker 3:So fast forward. Many years later, my ex-wife and I it was her birthday and she wanted to do a jump out of the airplane. And I was like, oh man, can I go with you? And she begrudgingly said yes. And I damn, jumped out of a plane, man, I went up in the plane and by that time I had done a bunch of climbing in Oregon and I had built this muscle. That said, I recognize I'm afraid of heights because, being on the trail, I couldn't just walk on the edge of a trail, I couldn't move fast like many of these people. I wouldn't trail run at high elevations and I would go slow coming down some of these mountains. I mean I climbed some pretty serious 2, 3000, 4000 foot peaks and I would boot scoot down on my butt but I did it. But climbing out of a plane and jump and yet jumping out of the plane was easier because I had safety guards.
Speaker 3:I was with somebody, I was tandeming, and the guy looked at me and he said I couldn't believe it. I said uh, I said I don't know if I can do this. He's like what's the worst that could happen? And I was like, well, I could die. He's like yeah, but the chance of you dying with me is far less than the chance of you walking out of here and getting hit by a car. He's like do you want me to show you the data? And he's like do you want me to show you the data? And he's like do you? I said no. He's like do you trust me? I said yeah, you've done this thousands of times. He's like all right, well, malfunctioning equipment is the only thing that could hurt us. He's like so just go. And I went.
Speaker 1:So, Al, what were the like, what got over complicated or complex in your mind, that that you were able to simplify to get to that?
Speaker 3:It was all the things that could happen. It was playing in my mind all the things that could happen instead of focusing on what I could control and what was really truly a safe environment. So, when I was climbing, it was all the things that could happen, when, in actuality, if I just stayed one ladder at a time, I watched my footing and I went slow, I was going to be fine.
Speaker 1:So being present in the here and now.
Speaker 3:Present in the here and now, confident and situational awareness. Yeah, with hiking it was. I was so focused on what could happen and I was like, but yeah, look at how beautiful this is. I want to see that. That will change my perspective. I want to have that story to share with my kids. And so I stopped thinking about what could and locked into that present and just said slow down.
Speaker 3:Because the truth is, yeah, there's danger and risk, but I'm literally at greater risk of getting hit by a car because there's so much out of my control when I walk across the street or when I walk down and go to the grocery store. And yet, when I'm climbing and hiking on a solid trail and there's stuff to hold on to and I'm aware of what's going on, it's actually pretty safe. And the plane was the same thing. Everything was controlled around me and the plane was the same thing. Everything was controlled around me. The only thing I had to focus on was holding on to the person I jumped with and experiencing it, and never in my life have I been more present than that moment when we rolled out of that plane and I experienced that first rush of air and everything, and to this day I can relive that moment, but in that moment I let go of everything else and was totally present, and so that was my big lesson in that respect is we actually control more than we realize, but we let the what ifs. It's like a what if?
Speaker 3:Analysis spreadsheet on crack. Well, speaking of crack, don't do it, it's bad for you, it kills. And definitely don't do it when you step into the stall. And that's what we're going to do, not crack, we're going to step into the stall for the roll up, because we've got some good shit to give you.
Speaker 1:That didn't come out right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, no, it did. All right, welcome to the Roll Up. This is where, regardless of whether or not there's a guest in the house or not, we unpack life's great trivialities combined with the answers to meaning and purpose. Yep, all right, here we go. Here we go. We have a new question in the stall. Are you ready? Eight trivialities combined with the answers to meaning and purpose. Yep, all right, here we go. We have a new question in the stall. Are you ready?
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, I'm ready.
Speaker 3:Okay, wadded or folded oh. The toilet paper by the way in case anybody's questioning that Folded Squares or triangles, squares.
Speaker 1:Okay, cums and squares thumbs and squares, bees and squares.
Speaker 4:I'm not that exact. I'd say it's probably you're a wotter. I'm probably in the middle between fold and wot you're a fodder, you're a wotter or a wolder?
Speaker 3:I'm definitely a fodder, I kind of foldish and yeah, I will say sometimes I will actually try to fold it and then just say screw it and wad it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:She who has a thing about baseboards definitely folds her clothes.
Speaker 2:You do that yes.
Speaker 3:Yes, by the way, when Phyllis's birthday occurs, if anybody wants to send her a Home Depot or Lowe's gift card or Ace Hardware gift card trying to get them all in there in case they ever want to sponsor us to go buy baseboards she would love that Along with If somebody would like to come clean my baseboards. Yeah, nobody would ever hold up After this episode, you think?
Speaker 1:they're going to Nobody would hold up.
Speaker 3:You think they're going to withstand the pressure? No, all right, so that's watered or folded. Next new question Can't wait to hear what you say. And this is true, you got to be true. And it's in your house, not out, to be honest.
Speaker 4:Door open or closed? Oh, I think we should answer for other people on this one I'm going to answer for Phyllis.
Speaker 1:Okay, do it, Do it, do it do it, phyllis, do it, do it, do it, do it I, phyllis, closed open. Oh see, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.
Speaker 2:You totally screwed up, mark. She is totally an open person oh, I couldn't believe yes oh my god.
Speaker 3:And the thing is, I bet you she's an open person, whether it's one or two I can't believe.
Speaker 1:I'm so wrong I mean not like with a stranger or anything, but no, well, it's your house it's your house it's my house, but I like to. You know, keep talking.
Speaker 4:I got things to say while I'm all right, anybody want to guess for me?
Speaker 3:closed. What close mark's closed? Yeah, you're totally closed yeah, it is.
Speaker 4:It is closed. You know what? Even when I'm home alone, it's closed. I knew it, I, I, I knew it what. Even when I'm home alone, it's closed. I knew it, I swear.
Speaker 2:I knew it.
Speaker 4:Even when I'm by myself, that door is closed.
Speaker 3:And if you see Mark's very beautiful, beautiful home. It's a tidy, nice home, but that door is being closed.
Speaker 4:It's closed.
Speaker 3:All right, what do you guys think for me?
Speaker 1:I'm going to say closed.
Speaker 4:I'm going to say closed.
Speaker 3:You, I'm going to say closed, I'm going to say closed. You're an open, I'm an open guy.
Speaker 4:I'm 0 for 2.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm an open guy. Now I will say that I respectfully close, but I've had to be told a lot of times. Would you close the door please?
Speaker 1:I'm going to let that sit out there.
Speaker 3:my friend, okay, friend, okay, all right that was in the public stalls no no, no, no, no, all right, all right, um, all right, now the rando, rando question. Oh, yeah anybody got one. Okay, phil go so what is?
Speaker 1:I would say, not even the craziest, but what have you used in absence of toilet paper?
Speaker 4:Oh no, I had to use a paper plate once, I'm not kidding you.
Speaker 3:I had no other choice.
Speaker 4:So the question I have is not why you used a paper plate, but why was there a paper plate in the bathroom? That's really my question.
Speaker 1:Or did you have to scooch and go get some paper plate?
Speaker 4:Were you eating in the bathroom and you're like, oh man.
Speaker 3:No, what's really sad is I actually remember this I was doing some remodeling in our kitchen.
Speaker 1:We all keep paper plates in the bathroom when we were not.
Speaker 3:No, we threw a bunch of stuff in the tub and it was in a bathroom that we didn't use a lot. It was a guest bathroom, and so I was using the guest bathroom, realized we were out of toilet paper, and instead of calling out for toilet paper, I was like, oh, I think I bet you there's napkins in the tub. I looked in the tub there's no napkins, there's a paper plate and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 4:I have so many questions I'm never asking about this story um, but I have questions, that's that's for when we're together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mark, what about you?
Speaker 4:mine's really not that exciting. I just used the, the, the circuit, the, the cardboard circle thing. I unrolled it the tube, the tube. Thank you, I couldn't. My words were failing me. I just unrolled the tube and and and broke it up into like strips phil so mine is attached to a story um shocker, of course
Speaker 1:early. Yes, I know, when tim and I lived in raun County, georgia, he worked at Rabun Gap Nkuchi School, which is out in the beautiful mountains of Georgia, and I had never lived rural-ish like that, and so I was learning about hiking and all of these things and questions like what if I have to go to the bathroom on a hike, all of these things. Well, one morning I left the house to go for a jog and I really had to go to the bathroom and was not going. This is before cell phones, so I couldn't like call Tim and say come get me, I have to go to the bathroom. So I just kind of meandered into the woods and did my business and then just picked up a handful of leaves and did what I had to do. And then when I got back to the house, I was so proud of myself, one for going outside and two for using leaves.
Speaker 4:Thank God it wasn't poison ivy. Oh God, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I did worry about that for about a half a second.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That could have also doubled up, Phil, as a hurdle that you overcame that surely was I'm so proud of myself. Well, I tell you what, phil. You opened up such a great window to the world inside the inner workings of our thinking and our toiletry habits. Yes, the inner workings of our thinking and our toiletry habits. I think we should bring the world to a close and pick this up at a later date.
Speaker 1:I know we will.
Speaker 3:Totally, there'll be more gobbledygook to talk about, for sure, probably a bad selection of words. Hey, thank you both. This was really special. I mean they're all special, but this had a little extra oomph to it just to kind of go where we went and to feel so comfortable with the two of you.
Speaker 4:Can I just kind of recap for our guests a couple of the tips that I'm pulling away from this, yeah.
Speaker 4:One of the things that there's, a handful of things that really stood out from today's episode and again, this wasn't planned, so I just kind of wrote this out is be present, be authentic and not in the gitchy term, but truly find where your heart is, where your head is, and be your true self. Uh, belief and faith, and um making sure that you're putting those in the, in the things that you can control and the things that um are going to serve you and um be clear on what scares. You say it out loud, uh, own it, but then overcome it, and speak in outcomes and not capabilities, but more of what you want to have happen, uh, versus your ability or your perceived inability to do it. And so those were some of the things that um that really resonated with me today.
Speaker 4:Um, for our listeners, uh, feel welcome to go to our Facebook page. I personally would love to know some of your stories, some of the things that you've overcome, uh, whether it's silly, deep, and maybe some of the tips that you can share with the rest of the audience on um, what you did to overcome it. I think that would just be a fun conversation to have on our Facebook page. So, uh, if you're not on our Facebook page, please go like it, follow it and participate, because we want to turn the mic to you.
Speaker 3:That's it, man. Let's, let's, let's dump out of here and let you know that we appreciate you, we, we admire and respect the fact that you put up with the three of us in our trio of madness, admire and respect the fact that you put up with the three of us in our trio of madness and always remember that we are going to keep flushing the realities right down to you, because this is the complexity of toilet paper.
Speaker 2:Did you say toilet paper? Everything complicated. One big, big mess. I'm overthinking. I'm over. I'm overthinking. One big, big mess.
