The Complexity of Toilet Paper
This is a podcast about the search for simplicity and making life less complicated. A show that dives into both the everyday moments, as well as life's big stuff where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stuck. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of potty humor, puns, and hearty laughs - we are here to help you ROLL with it and make life a little less complicated, one conversation at a time. So, come join us in the Stall! Toilet Papewr not provided...yet!
Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment, growth, and informational purposes only. Any opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not reflect the views of any organizations we may be affiliated with. We’re not your therapists, lawyers, doctors, or plumbers, just a few folks talking it out with a roll of humor and a splash of real life. Please don’t make any major life decisions while on the toilet… or at least, don’t blame us if you do.
Show Credits:
- Show open music by RYYZN
- Roll Up music by AberrantRealities
- Stall Bridge music by penguinmusic
The Complexity of Toilet Paper
Blood, Lies, and Toilet Paper: How One Young Man Took Down a $9 Billion Fraud
Ever had that glass-shattering moment when a story you trusted falls apart in your hands? We sat down with Tyler Shultz, the Theranos whistleblower who chose truth over comfort at 22, and unpacked what really powers a hard decision when ethics feel murky and the stakes are personal. Tyler explains why his ordeal wasn’t an ethics seminar so much as a courage test—how you act when harm is clear, fear is loud, and the costs are real.
We trace his path from Stanford grad to Theranos insider, where red flags showed up on day one: unvalidated tests, a culture of fear, and a PR machine masking vaporware. Add family ties—his grandfather George Shultz sat on the board—and the pressure gets intense. Tyler shares how he tried to prove himself wrong, pressed leaders and regulators, and finally spoke with The Wall Street Journal. Along the way, we talk about concrete harm to patients, the daily grind of recommitting to whistleblowing, and the unexpected strength that came from his parents’ unwavering support.
Tyler also gets practical. He breaks down how to define your core values, why you should practice courage on low-stakes moments, and what he’d do differently today as a husband and father: talk to a lawyer early, use trusted whistleblower resources, and act with strategy as well as heart. We keep it human—yes, there’s bathroom banter and walk-up music jokes—because levity helps us stay with hard truths. If you’ve noticed a shade of Theranos in your world, this conversation offers a playbook: verify, name what matters, and take the next right step.
If this resonated, follow the show, share with a friend who needs courage today, and leave a review to help others find it. Want Tyler to speak to your team about cultivating courage? Reach out via his site - https://www.tyler-shultz.com/. Or connect on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-shultz-450923126/.
And I wish we could go back to a time when things were so complicated.
SPEAKER_02:Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get motivated. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude, the beauty of this is the simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, what a knot, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper. Yeah, baby. You know, I I know we have this show open, but I I kind of feel like maybe we should each have walk-up music. Like, there's the there's the intro of the show, and then like we have walk-up music.
SPEAKER_03:Al, I think we just figured out how to say who we are in in time, let alone walk-up music.
SPEAKER_02:Do you know? I am not kidding you. Speaking of walk-up music, many moons ago I was umpiring, and the kids actually today have walk-up music. Like with a recorded announcer. Really? No, no, and I'm not talking about like mom or dad did this in their garage. I'm talking like professional level voice like like ours. Uh well, Phyllis, you still have a professional voice because you're now a professional podcaster. Of course I do. Thank you. See, look at that. Sound of just listen to those luscious tones. Anyway, yeah, it was like melbetting. Number 15, Mark Pollack. And it's got like, you know, some big beat music. It's kind of crazy. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well I'm talking about complexity.
SPEAKER_02:Right?
SPEAKER_03:I know. I know.
SPEAKER_01:What just happened to you? Go play the game and have some cracker jacks and some soda or something.
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna spend the whole dang show thinking what my walk-up song would be. Hey, if you were playing baseball, uh, just even the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I was gonna say, let's have walk-up music to the toilet. Like, like when you walk into the bathroom, it's like now coming to the stall. You two do radio voice is so impressive. I'm gonna use the song drop it like it's hot.
SPEAKER_01:Even with the two of you today.
SPEAKER_02:Oh no. No.
unknown:That's all.
SPEAKER_02:Hi, I'm Al Emmerich. I'm Mark Pollock.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Phyllis Martin.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe. And she she may not make it. She'll make it to the show. I know she'll. All right. So here you go. Today, complexity fans. We may be this may be the show with the most complex story that you've ever heard. This this is literally complexity to the max. So I want you to imagine having to tell on your boss in a major way that's gonna get them in trouble. You've known your boss your entire life, like since you were a child. Um, like family kind of connection. Oh, and by the way, um, the person that's on the board of this company that your boss is the boss of, yeah, that's your grandfather, who's internationally globally known, and your grandfather could get in real trouble. People could lose hundreds of millions of dollars, and oh, yeah, people are going to jail, maybe even you, and your life could be ruined.
SPEAKER_01:Just another Tuesday.
SPEAKER_02:Have you worked in the nonprofit world?
SPEAKER_03:Like, what the hell would you do? I don't even know how to begin to process that. Like, I that is some serious complexity. Uh wow. That's a moral dilemma.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, Al, just listening to you say that, like, the visual in my mind is the glass shattering. Like, the glass shatters. Everything you know to be true shatters. And then you're left with what are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh, and and that's that's the real story of Tyler Schultz, who is our guest who will be joining us in the stall today. Uh, Tyler Schultz, if you've ever heard his name, it was probably because it was tied to Theranos. And um Theranos, uh if you don't know, promised to revolutionize uh the healthcare industry years ago. Uh they raised nearly a billion, that's with a B dollars in funding, and um they attained a$9 billion valuation. Uh, they uh had literally the gentleman I'm talking about that was on their board is George Schultz, the former Secretary of State. The only three the only Secretary of State, I think, to serve under three presidents in that same role. Well, he happened to be the grandfather of Tyler Schultz. And and so uh Theranos, as you will learn as Tyler explains the story, basically turned out to basically be a farce. Um massive lying to shareholders, to employees, and ended up basically with the CEO uh now being in jail. And we're gonna tell you all about that. But the person who was behind this story, Tyler, was 22 years old when he became the whistleblower. And they literally uh Tyler has been seen on TV, they've made documentaries about it, 60 Minutes. Uh Hulu had a TV special, and uh, as you will learn, the CEO, who I'll let him state her name, uh well, she's in jail right now. Like, she went to the bad place. Although recently, and I'm gonna ask Tyler about it, there was some video that was released from jail of her working out, which why is that important? I have no idea. There are people who literally track that stuff, I guess.
SPEAKER_03:I I don't I don't even know at 22 if I one would have even had the emotional courage to to say anything to anybody about anything. Like I can't even imagine at that age stepping up to the plate, talk about walk-on music, uh stepping up to the plate to take a swing at that.
SPEAKER_02:And it's not like this is just some small little company. They you they they literally called the Apple of Healthcare. All right. And and and so the the force of nature that Tyler has become, what he speaks about today, uh, you know, if you go to his website, TylerSultz.com, uh whistleblower, founder, and speaker. And today, what we want to be able to do is really unpack what what we've learned to be a path to very clear simplicity. Um and it all boils down to core values. It boils down to what what Tyler speaks about uh for colleges, universities, companies, uh any company that that he he speaks to. Uh and oh, by the way, uh the the movies I wanted to highlight uh Hulu's the Dropout, Bad Blood was a book, an Audible Original, Thicker Than Water by Tyler. So he's got his own audiobook. Um and anyway, his website's just stacked full of really cool stuff as I'm looking at the phone. But he talks about cultivating courage, and that I think is your answer, Mark. He had to cultivate courage to do something that I don't know that I would have had the the chutzpah to do.
SPEAKER_03:But at such a young age, I think that's that's that's what throws me off. Like, you know, if you've got life experience and work experience, um but but he just I I I you know at that point I believe he had just graduated college. So you have this whole life planned out for yourself, and then you know, now you gotta be thinking I I could be going to jail, I could be ruining my family. I everything that I dreamed and hoped for at twenty-two could be gone. Uh I just that's incredible. I'm excited about uh about this conversation.
SPEAKER_01:I I am too. And it's you know, Mark, just hearing you say that, what comes to mind is i everything you said, but also at at twenty-two or twenty-three it's not even on your most twenty-two or twenty-three year olds radar to even be paying enough attention, let alone wrestle or grapple with a decision of that magnitude. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I agree.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, there's just not enough experience at that age to maybe even have your eyes open enough to know, let alone to say, Hey, I'm gonna do something about it. At all cost, I'm gonna do something about it.
SPEAKER_03:Totally. And and what about even the the thought of uh you your own uh how do I even put this? Your knowledge enough to know something's wrong is happening. Like a lot of times that comes with just just time. You just and and now you've you've gotta have enough confidence in your decision that this is wrong, whatever is presented in front of you is not right, so much so that you are willing your career and the careers of others I I I don't know. That that's and you Al, you said this was a super complex. I there are so many levels of complexity in in that that it's hard to even fathom.
SPEAKER_02:And yet, I think what we're gonna hear from Tyler is striking simplicity, which is what makes this so damn exciting. Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I can't wait to get him in here.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let's do that. Let's let's open up the vents. Let's let's get the toilet paper cleanly rolled and ready to just fray out. No, no, it wouldn't fray your toilet paper.
SPEAKER_01:No, can you make a swan out of the end so he feels comfortable? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like they do at the fancy hotel.
SPEAKER_01:Fancy. Can you make it fancy?
SPEAKER_03:It's like the Taj Mastall.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like the Taj.
SPEAKER_02:Did you just drop that? He's been waiting all day, trust me. I know you were looking. All right, okay.
SPEAKER_03:All right, all day. I've been waiting for the Taj Mastall.
SPEAKER_02:Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, it's time to step into the stall with Tyler Schultz. Um ladies and gentlemen, we'd like to welcome the one and only he needs a big voice. Like, remember we talked about a walk-on? So in our in our in a we were just talking about how little league kids, Tyler, have now walk-on music and so so here we go. This is the walk into the stall. This we're actually gonna give this to you so that every time you go to the bathroom, no matter where you go, you can play this. All right, sounds good. I'm ready. All right, here we go. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stall, the one and only Tyler Schultz. Wipe it off, Tyler.
SPEAKER_07:Sounds good. Happy to be here. I love when Al goes into his uh announcer voice.
SPEAKER_03:We have to live with this, Tyler.
SPEAKER_07:It's gonna be good.
SPEAKER_03:We have to live with this. This is what we deal with almost every day.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, it feels like we're living in a movie. It is more like a trailer to a movie.
SPEAKER_02:It's uh it's and my dog doesn't even respond to me now unless I talk in that voice. So his commands all come in sit cash.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_02:So, Tyler, here's a question. Phil and I and Mark, okay, I'm lying because I know they don't think it's a good idea, but but I was wondering, do you think it would be cool to have stall walk-in music? I mean, think how that would be. Like, seriously, would you would you do that? Like, if you would would you pay for that?
SPEAKER_07:Would I pay for it? Definitely not.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Mark that from the pro.
SPEAKER_07:Would I tolerate it? Um maybe. Depends what the setting is, I guess.
SPEAKER_03:I think the problem runs into as we all get older and have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, the last thing I need is like walk-on music when I when I walk in half tired, and then all of a sudden this music plays and scares the out of me. And then and then I'm like, great, thanks a lot, Al. I think I might who else are you waking up?
SPEAKER_01:I think I might need spa music if that's what this situation's gonna be. So I can I'd never leave the bathroom if that was it.
SPEAKER_07:Just rain sounds, waterfall.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Todd. Yes, that's what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02:And thank you, Tyler. And and you see, here there's the innovator, the entrepreneur. What you guys don't realize is it would be programmed based on the hour to play the right music. So like on Saturday evening at seven o'clock, it's like club music. On Friday night, it's rock it's ACDC, and like in the middle of the night, it's you know.
SPEAKER_07:Because this is the best application of AI that I've heard so far.
SPEAKER_02:I don't, I I I denote a tone of sarcasm, but I'm not gonna go with it. So anyway, I didn't realize a bit. I didn't realize this was a business pitch time. We're trying to fund a new company. Yeah, the hell with your stupid story. I just wanted to see if you would validate my idea. We're done. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:That's it. You could you could do a shark takes tank spinoff called toilet tank.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, don't even. No. So noted. No. That's it.
SPEAKER_02:There you go. Pitch. Oh, okay. So copyright, pitch the pot, pitch in the potty. Pitch in the potty. Pitch in the potty. Screw elevator pitch. It's a it's a potty pitch. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, uh it sounds like I maybe we know each other. Uh fortunately, uh, I've had the opportunity to to know Tyler and and we've all talked a few times getting ready for the show. But uh, I met Tyler. We're working on almost a year now. Actually, it is past a year, I think. I think that's crazy. Yeah. So Tyler and I were both in a keynote speaking workshop that brought six people together who had never met each other. It was a cohort. Uh for me, Tyler, one of the best experiences I've ever been a part of.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, it was really great. Really great group of people, amazing um moderator. I don't know what you would call Chris, but leader.
SPEAKER_02:And and and each of us, each of us bring our own stories, and and then Tyler and I just kind of became friends, and then I began to learn more about his story. And uh when you know, when we explained your background briefly, Tyler, in the in the open, uh all three of us are just dumbstruck at how you've navigated everything. So we're gonna dive into that today with a specific focus, really uh, you know, specifically around this incredible journey of yours that you're now speaking on, which is really cultivating courage. But just for for folks that um, you know, we gave the background of the story, uh, but but tell us preceding your your Theranos story, what was your background and what uh what is your background leading into all of this?
SPEAKER_07:Sure. I mean, I don't know how far back you want me to go, but um Outside of the womb is a good thing.
SPEAKER_01:So let's maybe maybe a few years beyond. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, like I mean, uh people know you, you're so connected to to Theranos, but a lot of people don't realize some of the other deeper connections you have in the tech space, the startup world that's now morphed into this career you have today.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so I guess before Theranos, I was at Stanford. So that's where I went to college and I was I got a degree in biology, and that was in large part, I think, inspired by my upbringing. So my mom was a nurse, my dad was a high school biology teacher. And in fact, he was not just a high school biology teacher, he was my high school biology teacher, which was very fun uh to get to actually see him in action in his place of work. And he was a really well-liked teacher, so um, it was pretty easy. Um, but yeah, I think I feel like I had like a very normal kind of childhood and upbringing. It was like beautifully boring in in a lot of ways, you know. Lived in the same house my whole life from when I was born till now. Well, I mean, I guess I don't live there now, but my dad does. Um lived in the same town, you know. I'm still connected with all the like a lot of the friends that I made in kindergarten, even.
SPEAKER_02:Oh wow. Now, what did you want to be as a kid? Like, do did you have like that dream job or something you aspired to? Like, I wanted to be an orthodontist when I was a kid and a baseball player.
SPEAKER_03:Don't ask me why, but baseball.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_07:Great. Um, I don't know. Going really far back, I don't really remember, but I would say starting in like middle school and high school, I really wanted to be a rock star. Nice.
SPEAKER_02:Here you are.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah. Well, I wanted to be a musician, I guess I should say. A musician rock star.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, some people would look at you on stage and go, that guy is a rock star. But I know.
SPEAKER_07:I really should close out every speech with a with a show as well.
SPEAKER_03:I think you should just bring a guitar on stage for your for your keynote. No, think that you're gonna play it, but you just just stand there and hold it.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, or play it. You know, there's companions that go up and they just play guitar while they're telling jokes, but somehow it works, but they really have nothing to do with each other. You could do that, play guitar and just tell stories.
SPEAKER_02:There's your stick. Yeah. Now, uh, Tyler, a lot's happened in your life since we last spoke. Uh, what what are you doing right now, like work career-wise, and then also some additions to the family? Tell us about that.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so they kind of go hand in hand. So after Theranos, I I did work uh in the startup world for a bit. I started two companies myself. But right around the time my first son was born, I was having um, you know, life was just getting really crazy at the startup. And I just thought this is a good time for me to step away from this crazy world I've been living in from Theranos to two companies and just take a step back and really focus on being a dad. So that's what I that's what I did. My wife only got, you know, only took six weeks off for maternity leave. And so it just felt like the right time for me to to focus on home life.
SPEAKER_05:And kind of what I told her around that time was that you know, I was just burned out and I just really needed a break and I wanted to focus on on something else. And focusing on being a dad has been an absolutely amazing, wonderful thing. And now I have two kids. I have a two-year-old and a two-month-old. Um, and during this period of time, I also decided it was a good time for me to start speaking more about my experiences at Fairness rather than just speaking. I had always spoken about it.
SPEAKER_07:But my main priority was always something else, you know, starting my companies. And now that those I'm not working on any startups, um, it's it's been great for me to just focus on doing the speaking. I I've I've gotten the opportunity to speak all over the world to all kinds of audiences. Um, and it's just a great way for me to um you know have a profession and also be able to spend 90 plus percent of my time at home with my kids. It's been amazing. Phil.
SPEAKER_02:Did you have a I thought you had a question?
SPEAKER_01:No, I'm just basking in how like what a beautiful life that is and like lovely choices that you were able to make. And then like I have this question about um, like when I heard you say you're speaking all over the world, how you knew what it was that you wanted to speak about.
SPEAKER_07:I mean, so I think the topic was fairly obvious. Um, so I actually I fell into the and I I guess they're different angles are maybe less obvious. I think is what I'm yeah, the specificity of it is maybe less obvious. But I I will say that I fell into the speaking world somewhat on accident. So someone had reached out to me and just said, Hey, would you be willing to come speak at this organization? And at first I just said, no, you know, I'm not interested in doing this. I want to be focused on um my startups, and and that's just a distraction. But then um they really pitched in a way that it seemed less like a distraction that it would add value. And I really that really resonated with me. And I started doing it just because people were reaching out. And I turned out I really enjoyed it. I felt like I was very good at telling the stories that the audience reactions um were very genuine and and the the connections that I was able to build afterwards um were just incredible. So it was something that I just wanted to keep doing. And initially, when I started speaking, Theranos still existed. They they were still an operating company. So it was in a lot of ways, it was incredibly scary because of all the lawsuits and and and everything that I had already been threatened with. And so I actually went and I tried to buy defamation insurance when I started speaking publicly about this. And I was shocked that the the premium was like$50,000 a year with a max coverage of like a million dollars, which would not nearly cover my legal costs if I was if I were actually went to court for defamation. So I ended up not buying that defamation insurance, but it really just tells you like how um like I was still living the story as I started telling it in front of audiences. And then luckily, as more time has passed, the company eventually shut down. There were all these investigations. Elizabeth and Sonny are now sitting in in prison, and so it has become much, much safer and easier for me to speak more openly about these experiences, which is another reason why I started doing it. So they went to prison almost exactly when my son was born, so just over two years ago. Um, and then the topic around um, I guess, like cultivating courage really came from this idea that in a lot of ways it is, I mean, maybe it's intuitive, but sometimes I'm and maybe maybe in some ways it's not. But I'm I'm often asked to go and and I'm asked often invited to go speak about ethics. And while I think that there are a lot of elements of ethics in my story, I actually don't think that that is um like the the center of it. And when I think about ethics, I think it's like when you have values that conflict. And the classic ethical dilemma is would you steal a loaf of bread to feed your family? And you could have two, you know, good people, educated, and yeah, they could debate endlessly on what the right thing to do is. Do you steal the loaf of bread to feed your family? That is a true ethical question. And I feel like what I was faced with faced with was actually not an ethical dilemma at all. It was so obvious. The question was it was a question of courage. And are you going to do something about it? And that is really the the center of my story, and so that's what I wanted to go to go speak about is both ethics but also courage. Like when you see something that is um in affront to your values, what are you going to do? And I hope that I'm able to inspire people to go do the right thing and stand up for their values and speak up about things. And so that is the goal that I have when I go speak.
SPEAKER_02:So let's do a quick rewind, real quick, from a time stamp standpoint, because obviously the meat of of this show is about the unraveling of unraveling of complexity. And my God, uh, you know, when we teed up the show, we said this this is probably the most complex story that we've we've ever had on the show. But Tyler, I gave the the poor man's version of the story. Uh, but give us your version, elevator pitch style, of the constraints and complications that surround the relationships and your choices. Sure, yeah.
SPEAKER_07:So the elevator pitch. Um, I met this woman named Elizabeth Holmes when I was 20 years old. I was an undergrad at Stanford, and I met her in my grandfather's living room, and she pitched us this um vision for a company that she had. Not even a vision. She pitched us the company that she built when she was 19 years old. She dropped out of Stanford University and invented this technology in her uncle's basement that could test for anything that a central laboratory could test for, but just with a single drop of blood. And you could do these tests anywhere where you had access to electricity. So this could be done in battlefields, in Medevac helicopters, and operating rooms, in patients' homes, and safeways, and Walgreens. So it sounded like a technology that really had no limitations. And I just knew that it was something I wanted to be a part of. So I joined this company as my first job out of college, and my grandfather joined the board of the company around the same time. It did not take long for me to realize that this company was essentially a complete fraud. That technology did not exist. Um, and I could go into more details about that, but it's probably not important for the purposes of this podcast. But it pretty much did not exist. And we deceived regulators into investing almost a billion dollars into this company that was essentially vaporware. And in order to keep this moving forward, we had to start testing real patients. So we started testing patients on a technology that was really unproven, that was really inaccurate. And actually, most of the tests weren't even done on the Theranos technology. So instead of running them on a Thernos device, we would just dilute blood and run it on the same third-party equipment that you would see in a Quest or Lab Core. So there was very, very little innovation that was actually happening. She was deceiving regulators, she was deceiving patients, she was deceiving the investors, she was deceiving the board. And most of my all of my colleagues saw this. Um, but no one wanted to do anything about it. And it was because over the period of the previous 10 or 11 years, Elizabeth and Sonny had built this intense culture of fear where anytime someone spoke up, they were immediately fired. And sometimes after they were fired, they were sued. And when they sued people, they would send out company-wide emails about it that basically said, We will sue you too if you get in our way. They were incredibly litigious. And when people see these feedback loops, they see, you know, when people speak up, nothing good happens. The person who spoke up is not better off, their coworkers are not better off, the patients are not better off. It just ends badly for everyone. So I'm gonna stop speaking up. And then instead of speaking up, people will just quietly leave. And when you do this over the course of 10 years, suddenly you're left with people who will mostly just go along with anything that Elizabeth asks them to do. And so it was an incredibly odd culture for someone like me to be dropped into. Um, but I felt like I have to do something about this. And I felt like I was in a unique position because Elizabeth was almost like becoming part of my family. She was coming to, she came to three of our Christmas dinners. She was coming to Thanksgiving, birthday parties. And so I felt like I was in a unique situation where other people had spoken up and essentially had been fired on the spot, or worse, I felt like I could raise these concerns and actually start a productive conversation.
SPEAKER_02:Tyler, just real quick, because I think this point is so big to emphasize. Um, it wasn't like your grandfather was just some ordinary dude. Your grandfather is George Schultz, a former Secretary of State, three times under three presidents, correct?
SPEAKER_07:Uh well, he was a secretary of state for just Ronald Reagan, but he has held the most cabinet positions in U.S. history.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. So it's it's not like it's Bob Smith around the corner. And and how did that play into the earlier conversations? And I know Mark has a question for you, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_07:Um, so my grandfather's involvement played a really big role in how I spoke up. Initially, it was an incentive. Like I felt like, again, like a I have a personal relationship with Elizabeth.
SPEAKER_05:My grandfather's on the board, that gives me a shield that most people don't have. And then when I spoke to the Wall Street Journal, what I told the reporter on the first on the very first phone call I had with him is that my grandfather was part of the Nixon administration during Watergate.
SPEAKER_07:He was a Secretary of Treasury under Nixon, he was part of the Reagan administration, he was Secretary of State during the Iran Contra scandal, and he made it out of both of those with his integrity completely intact. So I told this reporter that I knew with if he was given the chance to make things right with the people that Elizabeth has hurt, he's going to take that opportunity. And I wanted to make sure that he had that opportunity before he passed away because he was 95 years old at the time. And so that was again, of course, I was worried about patients and the harm being done to them, but part of my motivation was also to preserve my grandfather's legacy. So early on, it was it was um almost a motivator for me to speak up. And I thought it would help me.
SPEAKER_03:Tyler, how how long did you, how long were you working at the organization until you made that decision? Because you said that there was a big turnover. People would silently Leave, um, uh, you know, people weren't quitting because they or they you know speaking up because they would get sued. But but how long how how long were you there till you realized that that there was an issue? And and coming back almost to the to the complexity piece of that, um how long did you sit on that and like how how long did you have to sit on that and think on that before you made that decision?
SPEAKER_07:So it became obvious that things were wrong on my very first day as a full-time employee. Wow. It was not hard to figure out.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_07:Um there were huge red flags on my very first day. So my first day happened to be the day that we launched the product after being in stealth mode for 11 years. But on that same day, I learned that even though we had quote unquote launched the product, that we had zero tests that were validated on the platform. So anything that a patient, any any patient who walked into Walgreens that day, first of all, would not get a finger prick. They would get a needle in the arm. And then none of those tests would be run on the Theranos equipment. We would either just send the blood out to other labs to do the testing, or we would dilute it and run it on standard equipment. And that was on my first day. So that was the first red flag. And then the red flags just kept stacking from there. But you have to remember, I was 22 years old. This was my first job out of call out of college. I had no other reference points about you know how a lab is operated, how companies operate, how um what it's like to work at a startup. I had no point of reference. And I was just surrounded by people who were going along with this, right? Sure. People who were senior scientists, people who had been published in nature, um, people who had, you know, like people like Sunny, who had made millions and millions of dollars um with past businesses. And so you I initially had this feeling like I have to be missing something. Like, I have to be missing something here. And I also really trusted Elizabeth. So I I thought that her intentions were good. And so, you know, initially I kind of brushed off these red flags and and went along with it like everybody else.
SPEAKER_03:You know, the the thought of courage and over overthinking. So w you you know, you you you sat on it for a while, you watched, you saw more red flags. Tell me about how you translated the overthinking piece of, well, maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're right, maybe this, maybe that, into a into a center of courage that then you're like, okay, I need to go talk to my grandfather, or I need to go talk to the news, or I need to talk to somebody about this. How did what was what was that precipice like?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, so there's a few things there. So one, I tried really, really hard to prove myself wrong. So that was one thing that I did really well that I absolutely needed to do because it gave me 100% confidence in myself and in my convictions. Like I spoke to colleagues, managers, a vice president. I eventually talked to Elizabeth, the CEO, the Sonny, the COO and president. I talked to a board member, I reached out to regulators. I literally read laws that govern central laboratories, and I tried every single way to try to prove myself wrong. And I could not. I absolutely could not. And at that point, I was I knew that I was directly contributing to something that was hurting people. And that is one of the things that I went and I told my grandfather. Like that's when I felt like I really need to start speaking up here, is when it was so obvious that I was hurting people and I was part of something that was hurting people. And that's when I really wanted to go speak to my grandfather. And I gave I told him almost exactly that. I told him, I feel like I am part of the Milgram experiment right now, where you push a button and you hear someone scream in the other room, and you push the button and you hear someone scream, and you do that over and over. And it's surprising how long people will actually do that if there is an authority figure telling them to do it. And I just recognize I am that person and I can't push the button anymore. Not only can I do I have to stop pushing the button, but I need to do something about this authority figure telling all of my colleagues to continue pushing this button. And unfortunately, that did not resonate with my grandfather.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Your theme is called cultivating courage. Um that's a whole show on its own. But this show, Tyler, as you know, is about diving into how we overthink and how we make our life more complex. But the way you articulate and even just simply communicate with such a resolute sense of purpose makes us feel almost like, well, this is pretty simple for you. And and I think you've even used that terminology, it was very simple. So, how did you arrive at simplicity as it relates to something that was so complex and courageous?
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I think it uh in a lot of ways it comes back to you know, what is ethics versus courage? And I think ethics is incredibly complicated. You can debate forever when you have values that are conflicting, which values should win out. Um but for me, and I had that you know, aspects of that in my own story. Like I really value my family, but my family was on the wrong side of this. But I also value truth and authenticity, and in my case, um, those values went out over my family. I chose not to protect my own family over my over those other values. Courage, I think, is very simple. I think, at least for me, it was very simple. I had values that I just would not compromise on. I would not say I was wrong when I knew with 100% certainty that I was right. I could not, I basically couldn't sleep at night knowing that Elizabeth was hurting people. She was hurting patients, she was hurting investors. Um we told, I didn't necessarily know all this at the time, but I, you know, I had a pretty good idea. But we had told patients that they had HIV when they did not. We told people they had cancer when they did not. We told people that their potassium levels were so high that they should be in the emergency room, that they should immediately go to the emergency room. They were so the potassium levels were so high that they should be dead.
SPEAKER_00:Jeez.
SPEAKER_07:We told people that they had lost their unborn children, that they had miscarriages when they did not.
unknown:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_07:Um and so I just I literally I couldn't sleep at night. And I just I needed to do something about it. The hard thing was figuring out what to do. Um and so when a Wall Street Journal reporter reached out to me asking, saying that he was doing uh an investigative piece on Theranos, I just couldn't help myself but to reach out to him. I felt like I had to do more, I had to do something. It even though I knew it was against my own best interests, I just I don't know how to describe it. It like the decision was not a decision. It was in it was a compulsion.
SPEAKER_01:It's so interesting to me, teller. Like listening to you talk, the one word that keeps popping up for me, which I'm super curious about, is fear, or in in your in your instance, perhaps lack of fear. So for people who are listening to this, can you I don't just talk maybe talk about that because I I totally hear the conviction in your voice and you you knew exactly what you were going to do. That courage showed up for you. I'm wondering if there was in any moment in time where you were cognizant of I'm gonna push this fear aside because the the hard driver is everything that you just talked about. I can't be the person pressing the button. I can't sleep at night if I know that people are getting hurt or bamboozled or not being told the truth. And I think through the shows that we've been doing, this notion, this concept, which is very real for people, a fear keeps popping up over and over again.
SPEAKER_07:I was I was absolutely fearful. There's no doubt about that. Um and I'm not gonna like every day was not easy. I mean, it was very, very, very difficult because I think one thing that people don't fully understand about what it means to be a whistleblower is that there are constantly opportunities to give up, to give in. And every single day you have to remake that hard decision that you are going to continue down this path. But I was incredibly fearful that that path was not going to end well for me. I knew with 100% certainty that I was right, but I had I that did not mean I was going to win. That did not mean that I was going to come out on top against Theranos and their, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of cash and their high-paid lawyers and their Department of Defense, you know, loaded board members. Uh I actually thought that there was a very good chance that I would lose this battle, but I I thought that it was one that was worth fighting anyway. I I actually felt like this could be the most important thing I do in my entire life. I had an absolute just burn the ships type of mentality. Like there is no going back for me. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to spend however much money I have. Um, I'm going to spend what it takes. Um, I would move to another country if I needed to. I would start a new career. I would go get a new degree. I just felt like the things that are important to me, Theranos could not take away. And they could take all my money. And this is something actually that my mom told me. She said, You can take they can take all your money, they can take all of our money, they can make us sell our house, but they cannot take away the things that are most important to you. They cannot take away your youth, your creativity, your education, your drive, your family, your friends, the most important things in this world they cannot touch. And that is incredibly empowering.
SPEAKER_02:What a beautiful sorry, Mark, I know I just have to what a beautiful tie-in for your family connection. Like that must have been everything as it relates to the support and yet the risk your family was facing.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, absolutely. Even though my grandfather, you know, was fighting against me at that point in time, it was incredibly comforting to have my parents 100% on my side through thick and thin. Even when I made it really hard to be on my side when they could not understand the decisions that I was making, they made it clear that they were always there for me, that they would sell their house to pay for my legal fees, that they believed everything that I said. Um, I don't know. I honestly I don't know if I could have continued moving forward without that type of support.
SPEAKER_03:That's I mean, I I just don't even I don't even know how to put that into a uh uh into a box to say that's I'm just gonna go to my question because I don't even know what to do with that. It's so heavy. Um my question is this you you go out and you you provide um such an amazing story to so many people. And I'm curious, because your story is so big and broad and um and and honestly complex, even though there's a lot of simple truths in it, how do people say that they relate to you? How have they come back to you to say, wow, your story has really helped me?
SPEAKER_07:I relate to you because Yeah, it's almost um it's almost sad in a way how much people do relate to this story. Every single time I go speak somewhere, someone will come up to me afterwards or reach out on LinkedIn and say that they've experienced something very similar, maybe at a different scale, maybe in a different shade. But I have learned that there are shades of Theranos everywhere. Um, and I'm constantly reminded of that after I go speak at uh you know various organizations or conferences or universities, literally every single time. Um and so I think that that's part of the reason why people like to hear me speak is that I think oftentimes people see these types of things in their own lives and they don't do anything about it. And sometimes they beat themselves up over it, and and you know, there's there's no good in doing that either. What I really encourage people to do is to reflect on those experiences and recognize what happened, what they did, how they can improve, treat it as a teaching moment, how can you do better next time? Um, and so I think people hear you know my story and they think, you know, how can I apply this in my own life? What are the things that are really important to me and how can I stand up for them?
SPEAKER_01:You know, Tyler, getting to the place, like when when your mom said all of that to you, and um just getting to the place where you knew that you were gonna move forward no matter no matter what. I just want to share, like, to me, that is such a free place to be. Like there's not, in my opinion, a freer place to get to, even though it came at a at a price. And I hope for our uh friends who are listening, there's such um beauty in that as scary, just even listening to talk about it is scary to even listen to. Um, but I think there's a lot there, there for for all of us to listen to and to learn from, and I really appreciate your sharing that yeah, and you're right.
SPEAKER_07:It was like a very free place to be in a lot of ways. And I think that in large part comes with just the place in life that I was. I was so young. And on my very last day, actually, Sonny sent me this really, really brutal email where he accused me of being arrogant, ignorant, patronizing, and reckless. And when I reflect back on that email, I actually realized that he was in some ways right about a lot of those things. I think I was, you know, I was so confident. I borderline on arrogant, you can maybe call it arrogant that I, a 22, 3, 24, 25-year-old kid, I don't know when when you want to put a time uh stamp on it, but like basically me and one other person, another young graduate, um, we're gonna stand up to a$9 billion company. That is incredibly arrogant, maybe, maybe or overly confident. I don't know what you want to call it. Courageous. Courageous. I was I was very confident. I had I was naive. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I really had no idea. Um, and I didn't know that I that the financial toll it would take, the emotional toll it would take, the toll it took on my relationships. I was completely naive to all of that. And I wouldn't necessarily say I was reckless, but I had an extremely high risk tolerance. And I was really willing to put everything on the line. And when I look back on that, you know, I think that's just a unique type of courage that comes with being young. And I often speak at universities, and what I tell the I what I tell students is that I hope they recognize that they're in that exact same situation that I was in, and that they should capitalize on that this opportunity to speak truth to power or start a company or move to a new country or get a new degree or take whatever risk it is that they have that urge to take, because now is the time to do it.
SPEAKER_02:So take a look at that statement you just made. Couldn't couldn't have asked for a better segue here. And let's play time capsule. Tyler then versus Tyler now. Tyler then, no strings attached, young, courageous, willing to take on the world. Tyler today, father of two children, husband, wife, and closer to many of the people who probably professionally run into many of the same challenges that you talked about earlier, where they've now figured out, oh yeah, somebody's doing something wrong. Do I step up? So does Tyler step up today? Have you have you asked yourself that question?
SPEAKER_07:It is a really good question. It would be much, much harder. I think it's when you're in your early 20s, it's one thing to kind of blow up your own life and and have the ability to to recover from that. But when you have a wife, two children, a mortgage, that becomes much, much more complicated, much, much harder to do. I would like to think that I would still do it, and I, but I would probably just do it in a different way. I I would do it in a more responsible way. And there were ways for me to speak up without causing as much strife in my life as it did. I was just unaware of those avenues when I was in my early 20s. Um, the number one thing I would do differently is actually just talk to a lawyer while I still worked at the company. That would have saved me. Paying that legal fee up front would have saved me a lot and legal fees on the back end for sure. But I also, this is a good opportunity for me to make a little plug for a nonprofit that I'm a part of called the Signals Network. And what they do is they support whistleblowers in all kinds of ways. They connect them to reporters, they provide legal counsel, they provide psychological help. They we've even connected whistleblowers to safe houses to safely escape countries. So there are amazing resources available to whistleblowers. I wish that I had just known about them when I was a whistleblower myself.
SPEAKER_02:Tyler, all the three of us since we started talking about this show have been just dying to go. I can't wait for him to give us some tips. Because, you know, every show we we we wrap it up by getting tips and advice. And we want to do that, but before we do that, we have to drag you, dragging, drag you screaming and or no, we have to grab you and drag you screaming and whatever into what we call kicking and screaming. Thank you. I couldn't think of the words.
SPEAKER_07:Drag you kicking and screaming into the stall. Thank you, Tyler. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna do the roll-up now.
SPEAKER_02:God, you talk about complicating shit. Oh my god. And so, Tyler, we have assembled a cadre of questions that we hope um will allow you to reveal the deeper truth in yourself and to others. Are you are you ready for that? I don't know. I don't know if I'm ready. Okay, all right. All right, so Tyler, I'm gonna open up with the very first question. I'm gonna open up with the very first question. And um, here it is. Um this is this is this is this is a tough one. You ready? I'm I'm yeah. In the absence of toilet paper, what have is the craziest thing you've ever used?
SPEAKER_07:You know, I I don't think anything that crazy, probably a leaf. Camping. That's like really as crazy as it gets.
SPEAKER_00:A leaf?
SPEAKER_07:I don't have you used something crazier than a leaf?
SPEAKER_02:Um I I did once. I did once. I no, it's not that bad. I I used I used a box, I used a tissue box. It was not comfort, it was not comfortable, but I used the tissue box. Yeah. I used the tissue box. All right, okay, uh, a leaf. All right, there you go. Um who wants to go next?
SPEAKER_01:What's your favorite uh toilet time activity?
SPEAKER_07:Ooh, favorite toilet time activity is probably um probably just like reading about fantasy football, at least at the moment, because drafts are right around the corner. I'm like, Yeah, baby fantasy football news, maybe doing a little uh mock draft or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Al's been talking about fantasy football for like six weeks now, so I hear you.
SPEAKER_02:Every day. We're gonna do a show on the complexity of being a fan now because of fantasy football.
SPEAKER_07:So yeah, I gotta see my brother's coming over to my house tonight, and we have a a draft with my wife and my brother and some friends. So that's why it's top of mind.
SPEAKER_02:But will you be the host with us that time? Will you feel it? Because Phyllis and Mark have no desire to do that show.
SPEAKER_01:Mark, we just got kicked off our own show.
SPEAKER_02:Al.
SPEAKER_03:That cuts really deep, Al.
SPEAKER_02:Um, yeah, uh not as deep as a tissue box.
SPEAKER_03:All right, Mark, go ahead. All right, Tyler. If your bathroom could sum you up in one word, what would it be?
SPEAKER_07:My bathroom sum me up in a word. Uh-huh. Um, I would probably say quick. I don't like to spend a lot of time in the bathroom, to be honest.
SPEAKER_03:Nice. Well, I mean, you're doing fantasy football stuff in there, so I don't I don't know if those two things equal out. So, you know, you can drag out, but generally I like to be in and out.
SPEAKER_02:I was gonna say all right, before we get your advice, last one, it's it's a standard in the show. Um over or under.
SPEAKER_07:The role. Oh. I I have to say under, which is a bit controversial. Oh he may be the first guest that ever said under.
SPEAKER_02:Tyler, you may be a whistleblower. That that took a lot of courage.
SPEAKER_03:It did, it did take courage, Mark. It takes a lot of courage because you could have lied, because you know what the answer should be. But but you're not gonna be. There's no judgment. There's judgment. No total judgment.
SPEAKER_07:There is no advantage of over versus under. Yes, there is. What is one advantage that over has over under? It's easier. In what way? It's like a three inches closer.
SPEAKER_03:Go, Mark. Go. Well, no, the the paper, if you have it under, the likelihood after you pull it, it's gonna roll out some more, and then you've got a longer sheet just kind of dangling there that doesn't know what to do with itself.
SPEAKER_06:Physics says that it's equal. You're pulling the physics, doesn't know which side you're pulling on.
SPEAKER_05:Scientists, data guys, biologists, this is the last time we're having a piece of five, and you're gonna have the same amount of force pulling down on that toilet paper.
SPEAKER_03:I'm testing that tonight, Tyler. I'm calling you. I'm gonna test that while I'm in the bathroom and and call you. We're gonna FaceTime it.
SPEAKER_07:For me, the biggest difference is that if a toddler runs into the bathroom and starts hitting the toilet paper roll and spinning it, if it's under, it spins and stays in place. If it's over, it all rolls out.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna wake we're gonna find Mark tomorrow, like in the bathroom, surrounded, covered in toilet paper. He's gonna stay in there figuring it out.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, be like a toilet toilet paper mummy. All right, awesome. Awesome. By the way, uh bonus question here, really quick, Tyler. Since you do have two youngins, uh, is there a lullaby song or activity with the kitties uh that you you particularly enjoy or or is more popular than others?
SPEAKER_07:Well, my two-year-old loves the Grateful Dead. So we usually sing sugar magnolia.
SPEAKER_03:Unexpected.
SPEAKER_07:First thing when he wakes up in the morning, last thing he asks about when he's going to bed is to play sugar magnolia. And we can listen to him singing it in his tent uh in his little sleep slumber pod when he's going to bed. Yeah, I did not see that one coming.
SPEAKER_03:That's a total effect.
SPEAKER_01:But I like it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, tell the tubbies you're out. Sorry. It's the Grateful Dead, they're back.
SPEAKER_07:Yeah, I think my next uh my next attempt at becoming a rock star is going to be rewriting Grateful Dead songs to be child appropriate because my son does love the music, but I don't really want him singing about hookers on Hate Street and cocaine. So I've I've rewritten some of the lyrics because he does sing the words. That's awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Oh my god, that's funny. Tyler, what we'd like to leave our our our guest with, our our listeners with, is some tips, right? So you talked about being relatable and and and people come up to you and that there's a lot of folks out there listening. And um, you know, the theme is courage. So whether it's one tip, three tips, five, whatever you feel is appropriate, what would you like to leave the audience with today?
SPEAKER_07:I think it's actually very simple. Define what is important to you. What are your values? And I think if you ask a lot of people what are your core values, what are the most important things to you, they might actually struggle just to answer that question. But if you take a few minutes or a few days or a few weeks and really think about that question, what are the things that are most important to me? And you really internalize them, then you'll recognize when when they're being compromised. And you'll recognize when you're in these situations where you're in an ethical dilemma or maybe you're in a moment of courage, and then you'll see what you do, and then try to just keep growing from there.
SPEAKER_01:And Tyler, in the in the light of adversity, what tips can you give our our our our listeners on how to really hold on to those values when it seems like maybe the easier path is to just let them go and kind of walk to the wayside?
SPEAKER_07:The best advice that I can give is just to practice on the small stuff. Like I don't think anyone can walk into a Theranos level moment of courage and necessarily succeed on the first try. I think it takes a lot of practice. And so that's why I I mentioned earlier about like recognizing when your values um are being compromised and taking those moments of courage as almost like practice reps, no matter how big or small they are. And then you'll be ready for the big one. Like that really just reinforces what your values are. It shows that you stood up for them and then um it prepares you for the big one.
SPEAKER_02:What an amazing concept that I I've never even thought of this way. You know, practicing on the small stuff as it relates to values, but also that relates to really practicing, or in your term, cultivating courage. I mean, most people would think, oh, you either have courage or you don't, but the idea that you cultivate it, it's it's it's a brilliant concept.
SPEAKER_07:No, I I say it's a muscle that needs to be worked out. And the the first way to start working that out is to to recognize when you're in that moment of courage. And I think a lot of people don't see them, or at least I feel like either they seek me out or I'm hyper-aware of them, but I feel like I'm confronted with ethical dilemmas and moments of courage all the time.
SPEAKER_02:It's like being present, you know? You can't you can't hear, see, and smell what you're not aware of. And if it just it's what a beautiful analogy. Man, it has been amazing in the stall with you. What is the best way for people we're gonna put this in the show notes and things like that too, but what's the best way for people to follow you? And is there anything, you know, coming up in the rest of this year that you know you you really want people to know about for you?
SPEAKER_07:Well, I'm very responsive on LinkedIn. So if anyone wants to reach out on LinkedIn, very likely you'll get a response from me. Um Aside from that, I also have a website people can visit to kind of see more about what I do and they can connect with me there. Um for the rest of the year, I'm pretty much um, you know, just hitting the speaking circuit. So I'll be out and about.
SPEAKER_02:If people want to hire you to speak or or have you speak, they can just get you through either the LinkedIn or that, or is there a special place? They they can see your demo on your website. It's a great reel, right? Come through the website. Awesome. Pretty simple. Yep. And and uh he is responsive. And uh even though he is an under guy, that's all right. We'll let we'll let that one slide. We'll let that one slide. Tyler Schultz, uh cultivating courage, what a bright light you are in the world, my friend, and thank you for the time to be here with us today. Thanks.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Tyler.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much. This is the complexity of toilet paper.
SPEAKER_03:Did you say toilet paper?
