The Complexity of Toilet Paper

Rethinking Trust: From Kid Confidence To Adult Caution

• Complexity • Season 1 • Episode 14

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A late recording link turned into a bigger conversation about the fragile, funny, very human mechanics of trust. We traced how trust feels easy when we’re kids—buoyed by kind mentors and predictable patterns—and how adulthood layers on caution after broken promises, loss, or plain old miscommunication. From baseball coaches who mixed kindness with accountability to the shock of a parent’s illness and the spiral of second-guessing, we unpack how our stories shape whether we offer trust freely, guard it closely, or rebuild it one small win at a time.

We wrestle with a core question: do you give trust first, or make people earn it? One of us trusts and verifies, another trusts by default, and the third argues for context: different wells for different relationships. That led us to a simple, sticky metaphor you can use at work and at home. Picture a well of trust fed by small tributaries—kept promises, clear updates, owned mistakes, visible effort. Every miss dips a bucket from the waterline; every repair pours some back. Deep wells survive a big error. Shallow ones dry up. When the well drops below the tributaries, replenishment stops, and the relationship struggles. It’s a practical way to spot when you need to deposit more than you withdraw.

We also separate confidence from trust without pretending they’re strangers. Trust is the baseline willingness to proceed. Confidence grows with proof—repetition, pattern, follow-through. If self-trust feels shaky, start with a tiny, repeatable act that contradicts your fear and keep doing it until it becomes pattern. In teams, make reliability easy to see: set expectations early, share constraints, fix misses fast, and change behavior visibly. That’s how you turn drama into maintenance and keep water flowing into the wells that matter most.

If this resonated, tap follow, share it with a friend who values honest conversations, and leave a quick review telling us one action that earns your trust fast. Your notes help shape part two—where we take this trust talk into business and institutions.

SPEAKER_01:

And I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated.

SPEAKER_02:

Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get documented. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down, or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, what if not, dear friend? It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_01:

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the thunderous applause of Potty Time, starring Phyllis Martin, Al Emmerich, and Mark Pollack. This is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know where that comes from.

SPEAKER_03:

Wait, I'm not done with the sound effects. Thunderous applause in the background. Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to what we call the debauchery of the potty, otherwise known as the complexity of toilet paper. Where we parse out the small squares of life that are really things we overthink and we try to simplify them. Unlike this show's introduction, which I just made far more complex than it needed to be. What?

SPEAKER_04:

I I just don't know if I'm here to see a pirate movie or record a podcast.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, was that Pirate Sound? All right. So unload on me. Go ahead. Tell the tell the tell the behind the scenes news about our recording of this session.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, our episode today is on the complexity of trust. And I don't know. We agreed to be in the stall at 4:30, and at 429, we still had no link into our podcast, which our fabulous co-host Al Emmerich is in charge of. And so I am just feeling, you know, a little, you know, uh trust hesitant.

SPEAKER_00:

You're feeling trust hesitant. Yeah. Not only was there no link, one of us, me, never even got the link. So then I get the text from Apple and Mark. No, dip, sh, sh, sh, you're not your turn. You accept it. Not your turn. And then I'm sitting here waiting for the link, and my amazing co-hosts are like, Where are you? Gently said. And not. And I'm like, where I always am, always waiting. Always waiting for these two. And then finally, finally, the link comes and then I could get in.

SPEAKER_03:

All right.

SPEAKER_00:

So always waiting.

SPEAKER_03:

In the act of being true to our show, the simple fact is you are all correct. I messed up and did not get you the appropriate information in your invite. However, I do take particular note to state that if I were to show you the screenshot of the invitation, you did accept it.

SPEAKER_00:

I have the invitation in my calendar with no updated link. I will share my screen with you so that you can see it.

SPEAKER_03:

That is I trust that.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Mark got here though. Mark got here. I did get here. And it wasn't by happenstance. Yeah. So I think the elves, the elves of podcast uh skirmish stepped into part of this, and and after I messed up, they they they did their little tomfoolery and trickery. And that is why, that is why for this show, uh, for those of you that would never see this, because you wouldn't, unless you're on the show, we can actually put our names into the uh the show, not just for the chat, but to title ourselves. And I titled myself Suck a Punch Poo-poo head. So there you go.

SPEAKER_04:

I I'm just Mark today. So I'm glad my friends just Phyllis is always a way to show you.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm always waiting. I haven't made it my name. Always waiting.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. And if you ever wanted to know if this is the first show you're ever listening to, you can probably get it pretty quickly. If this is happens to be show number 11 or 12 that you've listened to, then now you fully get from this introduction why the hell we did this damn podcast anyway. Because we can't just simply jump on the microphone and go, hey, welcome to the complexity of toilet paper. Today we're gonna unpack trust. Nope. That's not us.

SPEAKER_00:

What fun would that be?

SPEAKER_04:

No, of course. We're gonna overcomplexify our own opening.

SPEAKER_00:

So news are right? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, we're really pumped about this particular show for the following reason. Um while we choreograph to an extent ideas and thoughts that we want to jump into, sometimes something comes up in a conversation, and it's like, oh, let's do that. And that's kind of where we are today. We were having a business meeting a while back, uh, and we were, I don't even remember how we got to it, but at the end of the day, the concept and the conversation or and the construct around trust came up. And all three of us were like, oh wow, let's what's more complicated than trust? And we're like, well, we're not sure. Let's let's unpack that. And so if you have ever sat in the pocket of trust, distrust, mistrust, wondered about trust within yourself, trust within others, systems, all of these things. We're not here to solve anything, but we're here to just have a an exchange and a dialogue about it. And and Phil, um, you know, you kind of ushered in some real good guidelines to at least get things going. What what is it that you want to unpack here today, or how do we start this thing?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I you know, I think there's as I was thinking about it, there's just I've just been thinking of my own life lately and um ways in which uh I'm you know, like I come to the world. I always tell people this, I come to the world with trust. It's just how I come until somebody shows me that I can't trust. And in all honesty, that really very seldom happens. But when trust is broken, it's really broken. And it's hard to come back from that. I think it's hard to come back from that whether you are the one who intentionally or unintentionally broke trust. It's hard for the person who feels betrayed to come back from that. And I really feel like this issue of trust, trust in and of itself, is such a foundational part um of how we all operate and who we are. And, you know, I think there's just something to talk about here and what gets uh overcomplicated, um, perhaps by what we put too much emphasis on or not enough emphasis on, and even perhaps how we might overcomplicate um uh coming back um to a relationship or an issue when trust is broken. And that can be as simple as somebody said they oh, as simple as somebody said they would send a link and didn't. I'm just kidding, y'all. That was funny. You know, somebody said they would text. I had to do it. It was right there. It was right there. Man, that was like a you know, somebody suck a bunch.

SPEAKER_04:

Poo-poo head.

SPEAKER_00:

Poo-poo head. Somebody says they're gonna text or call and then they don't, and you're really counting on that. So then does it set up like the scenario for every time that happens? Um, there's something that goes on in one's mind about what if they don't? What if they do? What will I do then? What should I text? Should I call? Should I reach out? That to the really, really uh, you know, perhaps more uh serious things um when it involves perhaps ourselves, confidence is broken, or a family member, a loved one, a close friend. So I think there's a lot here to talk about.

SPEAKER_03:

I love the way you started it off um when we first had this conversation. You were like, well, when was trust simple? I you asked that question, and I was like, wow. Um and I I really thought about it, and immediately I was taken back. So I moved a a lot, wasn't a military, um, but I moved between age uh birth basically and age 12. I moved five I moved across country four different times. I moved to from Connecticut to San Diego. My dad died in San Diego. We moved from San Diego to New Jersey. I moved from New Jersey to Arizona, and then from Arizona to Florida, where I landed in 1980 in St. Augustine. And then you throw out years later a move to Oregon. But but really between aged birth and 12, that was a lot of back and forth. And it was interesting because trust for me was uh at least I don't maybe it wasn't then, but now as I look back, it was real simple to trust my baseball coaches. Baseball and my coaches, and maybe it's because I was just so yearning for a male figure in my life at that time, and those baseball coaches were those male figures. But as soon as I thought about your question, Phil, I thought about yeah, it was real easy to trust those coaches, even even more so than in some ways in my family out there who I didn't really know very well at that age. But what's interesting is I thought about that, and then when I moved from Arizona to Florida, I was 12 years old, and it was my baseball coaches again. I was unsure because going to the South at that time um came with a lot of junk. I was I'm Jewish and there was stuff going on that I experienced that was not very trusting. But right away, maybe it was just the familiarity, I trusted my baseball coaches. More importantly, I trusted in those men who were my baseball coaches that were kind of like my pseudo-father figures. Um yeah. That's it, I just remember that being easy.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and that's a really great story, quite honestly, Al. I mean, to to have identified who you could trust. Um, was there anything in particular besides them being the male figures in your life that earned that trust? Were there actions that they did or things that they said, or what was it that made you so trusting of them?

SPEAKER_03:

They were kind and they held me accountable. Hmm. I I don't I didn't have unkindness in my life. I mean, it's not like uh I want to make sure I'm not painting a picture. I mean, I had a right, I was surrounded by a lot of love and family. There'd always been love and family around me. But I just you know, it was me and my mom and um and my sister, and you know, she was older than I was, and so I just remember these people being kind, you know, and you know, back then we talked about this in one of our early episodes. You didn't talk a lot about family dying, or your father or parent dying. But in baseball, I I was big Al and I was kind of like a large personality, I was also a very good player, an athlete, and um but these these men held me accountable. They they were like if you say if you say something, you gotta do it, you gotta do what you say and say what you do. And and so those are the two things that jump in into my mind as to why I trusted them. And um I didn't know differently, too.

SPEAKER_04:

You know? Well, I I think that's that's really it, right? Like I was thinking about the same the same question, and I I immediately went back to childhood, and I think that there's a reason that we do that. And it's it's we have limited past experiences. So for the most part, depending on how old you are, your trust hasn't been broken in a big scale, right? You you probably haven't had someone cheat on you. You probably haven't had someone uh, you know, com commit real estate fraud on you or something, you know, something really, really big that that's gonna break your trust, you know. Um I think also kids kids give the benefit of the doubt more than adults do. And and maybe it's because you know, kids are fairly optimistic naturally. Um and um and so, you know, I I I think as children we are it is easier to trust because we have no story. There's no story of mistrust that we're gonna apply to other people. I don't know. Phyllis, what do you think? Is it easier to, you know, when when you started thinking about this, was it was it easier because at as a child to trust?

SPEAKER_00:

I think it's easier as a child because you as I said, you come into I think people come into the world that way. And then there's you you have relationships with your parents or with your friends. The world is relatively, you know, for those who are fortunate enough as children to have a relatively free, um uh safe trusting, if you will, means you can depend on a particular pattern, you can depend on an action and a reaction, you can depend on someone being there when they say they're going to be there. And um I was just sitting here thinking how honestly complicated that gets the minute that trust is broken. The minute what you think you can count on turns into something else. And that's true for adults too. Uh you you know, you can look at it in a ver in a in a in a variety of ways, but we spend our lives doing things that are uh we can depend on patterns. Hopefully we can depend on systems. We can depend on these things until you know the glass shatters. And so what we thought we could trust, a system, an action, a relationship, a response goes away, we're left in this um gray space of unknowing, of uncertainty. Was it on purpose? Was it an accident? Is somebody having a bad day? So it is it is somewhat um it it it can be complicated. I think where we oh go ahead.

SPEAKER_04:

No, I I just sticking with that for a second, it it almost it almost resonates that to me in what you're saying in in the sense of when when when you're younger, trust comes easy, then then ultimately at some point somebody breaks that trust. And now almost as a an adult, when you see trusting people, there's a level of like skepticism, or you're like, well, yeah, I don't know, maybe that's the wrong word, but like you know, oh, you're gonna trust first, you know, versus I'm gonna trust until that person breaks it. Like it's well, it changes.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. We've talked a bit about this on a couple of shows, about like a situation I'm going through right now. I I really do come to the world so trusting. So now the out, like the output of that is I ask a million questions where normally I would have just assumed, I would have made an assumption based off all of my past experiences. And now I don't. Now I ask a lot of questions about a lot of things and I clear, I ask for a lot of clarification. I check everything more than once. Um, so that's one way to look at it. You're right. Like when that glass shatters, it shatters. But with my mom dying so young, I mean, I was young. I was 10 when she was diagnosed with ALS. I was just doing my thing, riding my bike, singing in the chorus, playing an instrument, you know, on the volleyball team. I really wasn't on the volleyball team. I don't know why I said that. Skiing. I don't even know where to live.

SPEAKER_04:

So she's lying and breaking that trust. Great. There it is. There it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, right there.

SPEAKER_04:

Can't trust a dang thing that woman says.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_04:

And then we're looking for a new host that we can trust.

SPEAKER_00:

That we can trust. But then, you know, one day I come home and she has ALS. I mean, like a slow. And so um, one of the things that I'm really working on, even still, is um, well, you know, you that happens. Well, then anything can how can I trust anything? How can I trust that the people I love the most won't disappear or I won't come home in two seconds and have my life turned upside down? So some levels of trust, right? Some things impact you so hard that you spend a lifetime trying to figure out how to navigate in a world that feels um consciously or subconsciously not trustworthy. And then some things, like this other thing I'm going through, okay, I'm growing up, I'm, you know, yes, I I've I hate it. It happened, we're working through it, and now, you know, I'll I'll be a little different in the world.

SPEAKER_03:

All right. I don't I don't know if I'm gonna butcher this or not. Over the course of time, in our own conversations, on this show, individual conversations, I don't remember where, but uh more than a couple of times somebody has said a version of this. Well, some things need to be complex because they're complex and require that discussion and that dialogue. I almost think it somebody actually said that on Facebook, but either way, um and their summary was well, sometimes complexity is a good thing because if you oversimplify it you won't really get to the glue. Well, when it comes to trust and you work through how you heal from trust or build trust, that requ complexity is not a bad thing, maybe, because you've got to have that complex conversation. You have to almost overthink a little bit. And I think this is one of those places where and I I think this is a great point in general. Like, we're not saying overthinking is always a bad thing. We I think we almost sometimes talk that overthinking is a bad thing. Um, it does slow things down, it does create a lot of bad mojo at times, it does have some negative things, complexity can too. But trust is anything but simple.

SPEAKER_04:

So I but let's let's unpack that for a second. Does trust have to be complex? So you're saying that overthinking. That's what I'm asking. Yeah. Like so, so let's run with that for a second. So if if why would we, or better yet, what would what would require us to overthink trust?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think it's overthinking trust. I'm thinking of like the examples I gave you. I think it is overthinking other things that are a result of for me, my trust being broken. So I thought I could trust this whole way of being. And then this thing happened, and now I realize, no, not all the time. And so the overcomplicating, and and I again is really now I have to step back for a minute in in certain situations and pause and think for a minute. What am I not asking? Have I have I fully protected myself? Should A B or like people, this is why people are lawyers, right? You know, if A B sorry, sorry for all the lawyer listeners. We appreciate it. Hold on. Right, yeah, go ahead, Al.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you're actually simplifying, Philip.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh, goody, look at me.

SPEAKER_03:

No, seriously, Phil, I think you actually are making things simpler just because you're adding a layer of questions, just because you're stacking things in your favor, you're you're technically making them simpler. Think about it this way. If you have a to-do list, they tell you, you know, don't put too many things on your to-do list. List your one thing with maybe two or three backup, and then when you get to that, you but you still have to have a to-do list, which may have a lot of things, right? Yeah. So you're dumping them out. You're going through a to-do list that is simplifying how you get to trust in the future.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? I I wouldn't disagree with that, sir.

SPEAKER_03:

I think that's true. That's kind of mind warpy. I don't know if the word mind warpy is is an actual word. All right. So so then I have a toss-back question to you guys. Um we talked about this trust. Phyllis, you said something, and I I am the same way. Mark, I don't know if you are. Phyllis and I are the same way. I I give you my trust, and I just I I have a choice. It is a choice. It is very simple. I tell people, you have my trust. I don't believe trust is earned, even though that was something I grew up with. I just say, hey, you've got my trust until you break it. And then based on that relationship, that's where the complexity really steps in. Because if it's an invested relationship, what are the constraints that broke the trust? So before we get to this next question, I was wondering, Mark, where do you stand on that? Do you do you does is earn trust trust earned for you, or is it just like, hey, you got it right up front?

SPEAKER_04:

Wow, that is a great question. Um, let me overcomplify, overcomplexify it real quick.

SPEAKER_02:

Ooh, overcomplifying.

SPEAKER_04:

Overcomplify, baby. Um, so yes, I give my trust first. However, I think one of the things that I know I do is it also depends on the situation and the person. Um, I'll give trust, but it's trust and verify. So in some situations, I'm a bit more hyper-vigilant to make sure that trust isn't being broken. Does that make sense? So I'm gonna give trust, but I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it. It's it's it's I'm giving it, but I'm like, I'm gonna give you my trust. So it's a little, it's not as like as free. It it's got some constraints to it.

SPEAKER_00:

I get that, Mark, because Al, I'm gonna speak for both of us. You and I are like, um, we're like kids in that way. I mean, in some ways, we are. We give it and then we just go off and ride our bikes. We're gonna go to the candy store, we're gonna get a dairy queen.

SPEAKER_03:

We're the ones that get robbed.

SPEAKER_00:

Can I jump? Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no. I'll just say this really quickly. My um my aunt Anne, who is one of my favorite aunts in all the land, and we are still very close, she looked at me one time and said, It is a miracle that you did not get kidnapped as a child. You would have walked right up to the car and gotten in. Gotten. And I was an adult when she said this to me. And I was like, it's true. And I like that is um very good in many ways. And to Mark's point, you know, it you know, probably should be monitored. Should be reined in just should be monitored and reined in.

SPEAKER_04:

Maybe not, maybe not. Maybe the beautiful thing is just to provide that trust and and not not watch it like a hawk. I mean, I I don't, I'm not saying it necessarily as a good thing. Like I oh, I look at me, I uh, you know, I I much rather just give freely.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, you get look, I mean joking aside, yes, totally agree, Phil. My my quick side story to that was I I dated this this young lady, and um she was incredibly street wise. Uh I don't mean she was a hooker, I want to be very clear.

SPEAKER_00:

That just did not come out right. None of that came out right. I just want you to know.

SPEAKER_03:

That's really bad. She but anyway, no, seriously, she she uh she was like, we were at a gas station one day. So stop it. It is. We're at a gas.

SPEAKER_00:

As long as you don't say you're in a gas station bathroom, I think we're gonna oh no.

SPEAKER_02:

I was getting cash from the ATMs.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm kidding. I'm joking. I'm joking. No, so so so kidding. There's I would I'll talk to anybody. And so we're at the we're we're we're at the gas pump, and this guy comes by and he's like, hey man, um our car broke down. Can you help us? Well, a car pulled up in front of us, and I was like, Is that your car? He's like, Yeah. No, call pulled in behind us. He's like, Yeah. I was like, okay. And she comes over, she's like, You need to get and says this stuff to this guy. He's like, What are you talking about, man? We're just helping. And she's like, get out. And I'm like, what are you doing? Anyway, a car would had also pulled in front of us, and it was a thing. They would block you in and and and and take money. It turned out to be legit. This was a group that was hitting a bunch of gas stations and stuff. But my point is, my innocence of like, oh, I'll just talk to anybody makes me sometimes blind to the fact that maybe somebody's trying to take you or rip you off. Now, at this point in my life, I'm I'm more attuned to it. But that's where that trusting first was a little bit along, like you said, Phil. You haven't been abducted. I thank God I haven't been, you know, robbed yet. But uh, and hopefully we never will. But really, what we're talking about is similar to like layers of toilet paper. Thank you, Phil, layers of trust. Because I think you we have to identify, okay, there's trust in ourselves, which by the way, for me, I think has emerged as one of the toughest things. And I th for all of us, uh, that is I I don't know anybody doesn't say, all right, I battle with some of that, right? Um, there's trust in others, okay, and and then there's trust in institutions. Now you said this up front, Phil, and I I wonder if maybe this ends up being a two-part show as we matriculate through this, but I I'd love to start, if you guys are cool with it, with just one of those at this point, like trust in ourselves. Because when when I answered the other question you asked, Phil, which which is where is trust complex? You asked us this great question, like when when when do you remember trust in yourself? Uh trust being easy, and then you said, when do you remember it being complex? And again, I was able to go right back to a moment. And um it was 2004, and in a three-month period, I lost my mom. I was diagnosed with diabetes, type two at that time, and uh I lost a couple of major accounts in my business, and um business went under. And I had to totally re-evaluate everything. And my number one, other than my wife at that time uh and my friends, but my number one fan, my number one, I could say anything no matter what, my mom was gone. Um, I didn't have that absolute the most trusting person in my life, trusted person in my life. Um secondly, I was questioning myself, and I had a disease that I didn't understand, and I didn't trust that I would be able to navigate through it because it's diabetes and what I knew at that time. Point, it was like, yeah, goodbye to goodbye to ever eating again. That's all I knew. And and so for me, that's the first time I can remember being literally stopped in my tracks, confused, and without trust in myself. Now I I rebounded, of course, and I came back from it, but that was like I I I'm not gonna make a right decision, I don't have the right resources, and everything seemed to be just exploding.

SPEAKER_04:

Can I let me push on that real quick? Was it really a lack of trust or was it something else?

SPEAKER_03:

I can say now it was a lack of trust. I couldn't have said it then. I knew I was in I was I was s suffering from extreme loss, situational depression at that point. Um I can look back now though and look at some of the choices I made and the decisions I made and say, yeah, I didn't trust myself. You know what the first thing I did that I began to trust myself? Running. I hated running and I went out running, and it's not it's too long a story for now, but I went out running and I became a runner after not having liked running and thinking it was stupid and laughing at runners, and that started a 10-year, twelve-year relationship with rebuilding trust within myself.

SPEAKER_04:

I I I'm really sorry. I just put you as forrest gump for about two seconds. As in I saw you space out for a minute. I did. I was actually picture him going, I am running, and then and then I'm sorry. I'm back. I'm back.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm so glad.

SPEAKER_03:

I'm glad you're doing your heart.

SPEAKER_04:

And I appreciate it. And so do our listeners.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going to run, Jenna.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. I mean, that's just I saw you uh the music was in the background, you were going over the bridge, you know, there's a bunch of people behind you.

SPEAKER_03:

I don't I don't know that I can trust you now, Mark.

SPEAKER_00:

I was watching bass mark, and I was like, oh, he's gone somewhere, and I'm dying to know. So I'm gonna pick up on what you just said because I think I'm picking up what you're putting down. I had the same thing.

SPEAKER_03:

Picking up the box of chocolates. You're a spry little chicken today.

SPEAKER_00:

He's so he's he's he's spicy today.

SPEAKER_03:

Um spicy. He's he is he's sandpaper, toilet paper is what he is right now. He's sandwich, toilet paper.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm chafing. All right, go ahead, always waiting.

SPEAKER_00:

So, Al, when you were talking and then Mark asked the question, I was thinking, huh, maybe it's not that you don't trust yourself, it's that you didn't have enough knowledge. And so while I was pondering that and Al listening to you at the same time while simultaneously watching Mark's face to try to figure out what on earth was going on, I had this thought. This is how my mind works.

SPEAKER_01:

And I was shit, that was some complication right there.

SPEAKER_00:

Right there. Um so there was a time in my life when I was not financially responsible. And I actually felt like as an adult, as I was coming out of that, Tim and I were engaged, you know, we're gonna start this life together. I remember thinking, I want him to be able to trust me, like from this financial perspective. He always did, by the way. I don't think I trust myself to know like right decisions to make, or I don't know. There was just like a thing that was going on. And I feel like there's a toggle there when you think about trust. I'm gonna try to make this make sense. I feel like there's a toggle there between I didn't trust myself, but in truth, I didn't have enough information or enough patterning to know how to be more financially responsible. So there was some fear built into that, that any decision I made would not be the right decision because I didn't have the framework to know what a right or a wrong decision would be more or less.

SPEAKER_04:

But see, that's where I'm I'm saying I don't know that it's trust. So in my mind, how it how it works is uh I have to choose between option A and option B. I know option B is the wrong choice, and I know option A is the correct choice, and I am going to pick option B, even though I know it's the wrong choice. That to me says, well, I can't trust my decision making, because I know I need to be picking A, but I'm gonna go ahead and pick B. So, but but I I think I hear you saying is is more along the lines of you're just uninformed or um you're you know, something else versus trust. I'm just trying to get down to the complexity of trust in this, right? Like where is that?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't know, but I'm gonna answer it this way. I don't know if we're getting into the complexity of trust or not, but I feel like this is a very interesting conversation. We should keep going. So in the scenario you gave, like I'm I have A or B, A is like the right decision, B is the wrong decision. I would have taken B knowing that A was the right decision. Okay, so you have to trust. I'm what I like in that instance, it's an issue of instinct, like um not instinct. Um, like you know the right decision to make and you make the wrong decision anyway. And until you unlearn that behavior, until I unlearned that behavior and understood why I was making a decision that I knew was not the right decision to make, then no, I couldn't trust myself to make that right decision. So there's a toggle there between like information, education, learned and unlearned behaviors, and trust I totally agree.

SPEAKER_03:

And it goes to the confidence uh the confidence in the knowledge versus the DNA of I can. And uh so I remember this is my version of that. I remember it's 2008. Uh, I just started working with a healthcare company that was in emergency and hospitalist medicine contracting. They ran emergency departments and hospital medicine. Anyway, I sat in the CEO, Bob Bunker calling you out, brother. You amazing man, you I sat in the with the CEO the day he was offering me the job, and I said to him, I said, by the way, you do know that I don't have experience in emergency and hospitals medicine, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's like, you're trying to talk yourself out of a job. I said, No, I just wanted to be straightforward. He's like, that's exactly why I'm hiring you, because you have all the other principles that are the intangibles. You can learn this other piece. In that moment, I knew what I didn't know, but I had confidence that I could go find out what I needed to know. And so I was fearless in my pursuit of figuring things out. So is confidence, are you saying confidence and trust are the same thing? I think trust is a trust. Trust is like blood flow. It's always there flowing through everything you do. Okay? We think about it. When we're driving, I don't know anybody on the road. I have no idea where they come from, what their last 10 minutes of their life was, but yet we drive at un ridiculous rates of speed, and we just trust that that person is not going to swerve over to the other lane. They haven't done anything to earn that trust. But if I had an experience where I constantly was being knocked off the road or I'd seen horrible things, I might not have that. But trust is always there. I show up at work. And so I think the answer to your question is I think trust is a constant presence that's that's always at level some level of risk of being broken, but also reinforced.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, but but you're right. I mean, that level of trust is with everything, right? So we get in our car, but we get into buildings, we drive over bridges, we get into airplanes, like the amount of trust that we have for other people that maybe we don't even realize that we're providing them trust, that the engineers built the bridge correctly, you know, that that we're gonna drive over. That uh, you know, so yeah, I I agree. I just don't I just don't know if confidence and trust. Now I I I I'm where I'm going with that is does a history of trust build confidence? Are they two separate things?

SPEAKER_03:

So no, I think they're connected. If you if you if you have a history here you go. This show, the three of us. Okay, we now have greater confidence in our own ability to to show up well for this show, uh, for how we sound, how we interact, how we give each other space. That's built over time, and we innately now trust one another. We trusted each other in the beginning because we knew that we trusted each other as people. The functional side of that trust is still evolving in the business side of it, but in producing this show and stepping in to do what we're doing right now, we have greater confidence in each other that is rooted, I think, in that trust that you know Al's gonna give up the ground and not always hog the mic. Well, maybe not. Uh no, seriously. We trust jokingly that we're gonna get it done on their deadlines. So I think they're synonymous in this respect.

SPEAKER_04:

I think it's more like and and and this is a fun like conversation. I almost feel like it's a verified trust. Maybe that is confidence, but we go you go in saying, I'm gonna trust Alan Phyllis, and Alan Phyllis are gonna trust Mark. And then over the course of year and a half, two years, however long we've talked about this and now producing this, you we have verified over our actions that we are going to do what we say. And that trust is now cemented and we have filled the well of trust, meaning Alwyn, uh oh, kidding aside, you you don't send a link. We still trust you, right? But if it's very early in our relationship, very early on in that that trust cycle, and you don't do that, maybe we're like, ooh, maybe Al isn't as as on time as we think he's gonna be, or he's gonna do what he says because he, you know, a couple times hasn't sent this link. But if you don't send the link now, we're like, oh well, you know, he's busy, you know, whatever. But it's it's that verified trust and then that well of trust. I I just I think that's and and then that builds that confidence. So I think they're separate. In my that's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that must have been something because there was there's there's a there's a pregnant pause that clearly one of us is uncomfortable with, so she will fill the space. I'm gonna say this. Um, Mark, it's almost how we started the conversation. So you it's it's um, I feel like there's an like an equation that one of the two of you will make after you've had time to think of it. But it there's something about consistency over time builds trust. And then because you have, as you're calling it, that well of trust, it's been built up over time. Something as simple as we don't have the link is a nothing because we trust that you're coming or you're gonna text um, or something's gonna happen. So we know where we know where you are. Um, and the only way that that gets shattered is if you do something, you know, not you, but if when one does something so far out of the pale, out of out of normalcy, out of what is consistency over time, um, then that becomes um something else.

SPEAKER_04:

I I agree. But I I would also say it depends on how deep the well is. Yeah. Because let's say something egregious really happens, you're probably gonna still give someone the benefit of the doubt. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

And and so that's the interesting thing. I had a a priest many, many years ago uh uh give this the give this homily, this sermon that that I have used in business about a thousand times. And and it it comes back to this well thing, and and we can use it for trust. So picture a well, water well, right? And there's all these little tributaries that fill that well. And the well is is is really it's it's full of water. So all the tributaries are are running to it and keeping it alive. Well, over time, let's say it's a person in that well, and you use a bucket of water, right? Because something happened. Trust was broken, somebody didn't do what they said they would. And so the water went down a little bit. Well, very quickly, that water's gonna rise back up. But over time, if buckets of water are being pulled from that well, and that water goes down below that tributary that's filling that well, it dries up. And once a well is dry, what happens? Stays dry forever.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

It's never a well again, right? It's just a dry hole. And so that to me is when relationships fail because of trust, because you've used all the water. There's nothing that's replenished it. And so I I think what I've heard you both say today is you walk into situations, and I do too for the most part, walk into situations with your well full. And then over time, either people are adding water to the well or they're continuing to take buckets out of the well.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, Al, he's done it once again.

SPEAKER_03:

Jeez, I was just thinking the same damn thing. Once again. I was like, he has freaking mic dropped this. And he's right. Okay, so here's my question. Here's my question for both of you, though. Alright, so prior to the show recording this, we talked about maybe we do a two-parter. Um I don't know. I I think I would love I would love to sit on what we just talked about because there's a lot here. And Mark did just close this thing out. I mean, I don't even know that we need to go into the stall at this point or the the roll-up. I think what, Phil?

SPEAKER_00:

I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03:

I think we call this a pause right here. Uh come up with a name. What do we need? What do we call a pause in the toilet? A plunge. A p no? Constipation? I don't know. No. No. What do we call it? Um we're just putting the stopper. There you go.

SPEAKER_04:

That was good. Yeah, that's really good. That's a stopper.

SPEAKER_03:

Phyllis, just you know the funny part, Phil, that felt so pat me on the head, but it wasn't. I know deep down it was like it was.

SPEAKER_00:

It was good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I wish everybody had Phyllis as a friend because life would be a better place with you as a friend. You are sweet. Thank you. Just that, just that little kindness right there. Like, oh, that was so sweet. Like, like I just did something meaningful. Anyway, uh, I trusted you would. Exactly. Do you know? Actually, we we are putting a great deal of trust in our listeners.

SPEAKER_00:

We are.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you know how hey? So you're listening to this right now. It is incredibly like freeing, but also I think in this moment it's just hit me that we're okay having this conversation and just putting it out into the world. And I want to just call out uh how uh a howdy high five to the three of us because the three of us are so like let's get to something, let's have a conclusion, let's have a wrap. And this was just a beautiful conversation that Mark Mike dropped on. And so I'm calling it we're gonna take a um a stopper, we're going to ponder this conversation and do a part two show. You down with that?

SPEAKER_04:

I'm totally down with that. I I you know, we could have a guest talk about something that's going on in their world, we could just you know, reconvene, unstop it, and uh just the three of us. But let's let's think about that. Let's think about what's next. And and listen, depending on when we drop this show, if listeners you want to comment on our Facebook page what the conclusion of this show should look like, we would love to hear from you. Um we'd love your suggestions.

SPEAKER_00:

I was thinking the same thing. I think that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and and and if you follow us on LinkedIn as well, it's the complexity of toilet paper. Uh we haven't even gotten into the concept of trust in business, you know, which that's its own podcast, I think. Anyway, I love the two of you so much. Oh, we love you too. I I I give you my word, I'll I'll work on sending the links.

SPEAKER_00:

We trust you.

SPEAKER_03:

We'll have a conversation after this call about that. All right. It's really hard.

SPEAKER_00:

Do we have to?

SPEAKER_03:

No. Well, no, technically we've all fired each other. Absolutely. Not me. All right, let's uh let's jump out of this stall. Um thank you so much, everybody. Mark already shouted it out, but tell tell people what they should be doing by sharing stuff. Give them the instructions, Mark.

SPEAKER_04:

Please join us on our Facebook page, The Complexity of Toilet Paper. Uh, you'll find all of our episodes and some fun jokes and some interaction with guests there. Uh like and follow that page. It will also bring you to our website. And our website has all of the platforms you can listen to us on. So obviously you've been there if you're listening to us, but we'd love for you to follow anyways. And then we also, if you're on the business end of the spectrum, uh we do have a LinkedIn page. You can search us by the complexity of toilet paper. Uh, and we are just starting that group, so it's small yet mighty, and we'd love to have your comments and your your follow there as well. And we're gonna eventually have, well, technically we have the page, but we're gonna have YouTube, yep, YouTube, Twitter, or um uh TikTok, Instagram, Instagram, all the socials.

SPEAKER_03:

We're trying to get there, we're trying to grow this thing. It's uh it's a journey and adventure, but we're we're proud to have you guys along with us. And thank you so much for being a part of the stall time we spend together, which is just a value that's immense. Phil, Mark, Al, we are out. Thank you so much, and this is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_01:

Did you say toilet paper?

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Al Emerick

Host
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Mark Pollack

Host
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Phyllis Martin

Host