The Complexity of Toilet Paper
This is a podcast about the search for simplicity and making life less complicated. A show that dives into both the everyday moments, as well as life's big stuff where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stuck. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of potty humor, puns, and hearty laughs - we are here to help you ROLL with it and make life a little less complicated, one conversation at a time. So, come join us in the Stall! Toilet Papewr not provided...yet!
Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment, growth, and informational purposes only. Any opinions expressed are those of the hosts and guests and do not reflect the views of any organizations we may be affiliated with. We’re not your therapists, lawyers, doctors, or plumbers, just a few folks talking it out with a roll of humor and a splash of real life. Please don’t make any major life decisions while on the toilet… or at least, don’t blame us if you do.
Show Credits:
- Show open music by RYYZN
- Roll Up music by AberrantRealities
- Stall Bridge music by penguinmusic
The Complexity of Toilet Paper
More Human Than Human: The Complexity of Change
Change rarely fails because of ideas; it fails because people feel unready, unheard, or unconvinced. We dig into the human side of change with clear stories, sharp questions, and a little bathroom-stall humor, exploring why data doesn’t drive decisions until we ask it the right questions. From nonprofit boards clinging to old playbooks to leaders navigating risk, we unpack how fear, fatigue, and control shape whether change takes root or fizzles.
We get candid about personal transitions too: shifting roles at home, health updates that force new habits, and the uneasy gap between who we’ve been and who we’re becoming. The most grounding insight in the conversation is simple and powerful—your value as a human doesn’t change, even when your world does. With that constant as a horizon, we talk about choosing a North Star, designing small experiments, and turning anxiety into agency. Communication sits at the center: naming what will change, what will not, why it matters now, and how people can influence the outcome. That’s how “disagree and commit” becomes a principled choice rather than a silencing tool.
Expect practical takeaways you can use today: reframing data questions to drive decisions, mapping readiness honestly, leading with context, and building buy-in without buzzwords. Along the way, we share a few hard-won lessons on humility, identity, and the mirror we all need to carry. If you’ve been stuck between “if it ain’t broke” and “we can’t wait,” this conversation will help you move. Subscribe, share with a friend who’s facing change, and leave a quick review to tell us your constant when everything shifts.
I wish we could go back to a time when things were so complicated.
SPEAKER_02:Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get emotic. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Adam Emerick are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, worry not, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper! We are here to discuss complexity. To sit in the stall and ponder, you see, for awaiting us so in this place where we pee is a topic of relevance between us three. What change may come, bring it forth, we say, for our challenge is to unpack this, and that is what we will do today. In the stall, one for all, and together we will have a ball. This is the Complexity of Toilet Paper Podcast. And so we begin not too slow and not too fast. Let mic drops flow. Here we go. Time for us to begin the show.
SPEAKER_00:You know, I always wonder how you are gonna start the show. I am never disappointed.
SPEAKER_02:I wrote that, and I and I am so proud of this, but I literally wrote that in about six and a half minutes just before we started the show, and you and I, Phyllis, did our pre-conversation discussion. So it was sort of like an impromptu, even though I did write it down.
SPEAKER_00:Like multitasking too, while you're pretending to pay attention to what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I said I wrote it before we spoke, which meant you weren't paying attention. Gosh, we need to go back to the trust episode.
SPEAKER_00:I know we do, it comes up all the time.
SPEAKER_02:Hi there. My name is Al Emmerich. Hi, I'm Mark Pollock.
SPEAKER_00:And clearly I am Phyllis Martin.
SPEAKER_02:And this is the complexity of toilet paper. And it is just a joy to jump into the stall with you. You you heard the little uh poetic justice. So um, hey, we're just channeling the good stuff outside of the stall. Hopefully, that we can bring into the stall, because today we do want to unpack something that is um, I don't know, kind of constant. Can I can I get a C? C. H. H. A. Hey. Give me give me an N.
SPEAKER_00:N.
SPEAKER_02:Mark? N. Give me a G. G.
SPEAKER_00:G.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Why do we have to pick a 17-letter word? Give me an E. We're done. Nobody knows what that spells. It's change, which is what what Phyllis and Mark are going to do with their third host.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't realize we both had to jump in there and like say the letter. I'll leave me hanging out there. I just didn't know. I didn't know the rules.
SPEAKER_02:How are you today? Because we're going to talk about change. Phyllis brought this to us, but uh, let's just do a quick circle around the block. How's everybody checking in?
SPEAKER_00:I'm great. A little tired, but feeling good. Fall is in the air. It was 38 degrees in Charleston, South Carolina this morning.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, we had 30, we had 33 four in Jacksonville.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, what?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We had to cover the plants last night and everything.
SPEAKER_02:Um, Mark, don't talk about those on the podcast. Shh shh. Warm or cold? Quick, quick around the horn. Warm or cold, Mark. Warm. Phil?
SPEAKER_00:I have a comfort level of between 68 degrees and 74 degrees. That is neither warm nor cold. Why? Warm.
SPEAKER_01:We're changing her name to San Diego.
SPEAKER_00:No, we're just reminded.
SPEAKER_01:It's Phil of San Diego.
SPEAKER_02:We're reminded why we're like how many of her months into this show, and we still need this show. Because she couldn't give us a simple answer. Nope. So warm or cold?
SPEAKER_00:Warm-ish.
SPEAKER_02:Moderate. I would rather be cold and bundle up and be warm. Okay. So Phyllis, yeah. You decided somehow we agreed uh to just tackle the simple subject of change. However, after the three of us discussed it as we do without discussing the hard details, realized we need a channel of focus. So so where did we land and what are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_00:So we're really talking about what we probably can see and know, but that we're not really ready to see and know, let alone act on. And simply said, we're calling it the complexity of change. But I have had several um things in my life that have happened that really got me thinking about this. And one um story I'd like to share, if I can share now, to kind of help set the tone of where we're going with this whole thing. Um so I'm gonna do that, even though you're just staring at me like maybe we shouldn't be doing that. But that's what we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_02:Well, no, you were offering up permission, and I think that um I think you were gonna do it anyway. So we just felt that the permission was not required.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I think we all know we were required.
SPEAKER_02:If you want to hear it, permission, permission granted. Thank you. I would love that. Let me validate your idea to just say Do you see me? Rock, I see you, I hear you, I hear you, I hope.
SPEAKER_01:And I trust you.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:We got the whole thing. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:And so, and now go.
SPEAKER_00:All right. So this has been on my mind for a while. And this is like one example. I'm going, this is gonna take 20 minutes at the rate I'm going.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm gonna get coffee. Uh no. Yeah, exactly. Welcome to the Phyllis Show.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, we like that. We like you. Um So I have a dear friend and colleague. His name is Curtis Askew, and he is the most um amazing data scientist person, and he has an uncanny ability to translate inordinate amounts of data into um lay language that people can understand. But I will also fully admit, he um is unconventional in many ways because of how he understands data and what he asks of it. And we have been working on projects for probably 15 years. And my experience when I am with him and others is always the same. And it looks and sounds like we have amazing conversations with amazing businesses or nonprofits or individuals. And then at the last minute, like when we think we're going to be working together on something, there's a hesitancy on their part. And for years, Curtis and I have talked about it. And it happened again a few weeks ago. And, you know, um, as I was thinking about it, I said, he said, you know, sometimes we think, you know, what he's saying, uh or maybe he scares people with the message. And I decided and said and believe to this day, it's not him. It's the information that he's sharing that is scaring people because it is contrary to the way that we, the collective we, have been thought, have been raised, conditioned to think about data. He would be the first person to tell you data isn't information. What people ask of data is where the information is. And that is a whole other conversation. Um, and he's also uh like I'm not even doing him justice, but my point being, as part of that conversation, I was like, Curtis, what happens if like nobody believes us? Like soon, we're running out of time for some of these really big things that um where we really could impact community change. And he said, Phyllis, nobody's been listening to us for 15 years. Now that's not that's not completely true. That it really got me thinking about myself. And I just said this to somebody the other day. My message in my work, and sometimes in my personal life, is usually about five years earlier than people are ready to hear it. That doesn't mean the message is wrong. That means we have a disconnect between my readiness and other people's readiness. And that is typically sitting in the sweet spot of I don't want to change what I know or how I think or what that might mean, because that's scary.
SPEAKER_01:So do you believe that w when you say that you're years ahead of others, is that you understand the data that's being put in front of you and and you can see the change coming? Or how's how's the data and the change relate to you being able to accept it when others can't?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think in the uh the sector I work in is the not-for-profit sector. So I think in that sector, not for all, I'm making I'm making wholesale statements here, which I know it's not for every organization and not for every community. Um, but there are ways that that the sector has been conditioned to think and to act. And I've been doing the work long enough to know that there are incorrect things in that conditioning. I've been in the sector long enough to know that many times organizations don't even know from a data perspective if their interventions are effective. Or they may be effective in a particular way, but maybe they're not effective whole like across the whole spectrum of hunger or homelessness or health. And those are very difficult conversations to have, but there are many ways in which to have that conversation if people have the will to engage in a different way of thinking and really understand what data they can collect, what data they can't collect, what that means, the difference between correlating something and causing something. And if only we could together get on that bandwagon, then that creates a whole different level of expectation about what's real and what's can't, what we can and can't do, what's real and what's not real.
SPEAKER_02:Let me let me get an analogy to make sure I'm tracking with you. Because I I'm picking up what you're laying down here. Um I I'm likening it to, okay, I'm a type one diabetic, okay. When I first was diagnosed, everything was on the radar, hyper-vigilant. Not that I'm not now, I mean, don't get me wrong, but I didn't know what I didn't know about food. And so I had to use the data to inform me like the number of carbohydrates, the number of calories, all that kind of stuff. Um I have data from my insulin pump, which tells me how I'm managing my disease. But what what you're saying is sometimes organizations struggle to understand the data or they don't want to know the data because they're afraid that that information may tell them the story they don't want to know. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_00:I'm thinking I'm saying yes, and there's always more inside of the data. It's not just, I think what I'm really saying is it's not the numbers. It's what questions you're asking of the numbers. It's how are you interpreting the data? And do you have the skill set to really interpret it? And nine times out of ten, the answer is maybe. Maybe. But I don't think it's that when as it comes to change. I I really think what I'm saying is not just when it comes to data, I think a lot of times when it just comes to our lives in general, we we can see it and we know it. I'm gonna give you another example in a minute, and we're just not ready to confront it, to accept it. And Al, I've said the same thing about value mapping for years. It is this phenomenal body of work that can be life-changing for organizations and individuals. It is different. I think even you would say it's different. And I think it is hard for people to jump in because it is so different than what conventional wisdom would tell you to do.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, I'm gonna position another way. Whether it's data or my value mapping or or something else, those are the vehicles. At the end of the day, you're confronted with a truth, you're confronted with information, you're confronted with a perspective that is creating change. And if you're not ready to hear that, because that's what I face with value mapping. That's right. If you're not ready to hear that, uh for whatever the reason is, it's not this is not an admonishment, right? You may not have the information, you may not just be in a position institutionally and organizationally or individually to be ready to accept that change. Um because behavior, uh, process I mean, heck, that's another one. Process improvement, process change. It fails if the people aren't ready to adapt and adopt that change. And so being ready to to absorb that information and being in a position to be able to accept it, ready to hear it for whatever the reason is, that's the crux of what you're saying, right? Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Mark. Yeah, Mark, it looks like you were gonna say something.
SPEAKER_01:So uh I I kind of want to back up and and catch up at the same time. So you know, when I think about what's complex about the things that we're talking about, the first is what's complex about data. And to me, you know, Phyllis, I think you've outlined something really interesting, um, which is not not what the data tells us, but what we're asking of the data. And there's so much of it. I think that's that's the first complexity that I I butt up against is there's data for everything. Uh I mean you uh truly the Internet of Things has has given us more information than we know what to do with. So that has its own complexity of confusion of what is this even telling me. But then then we're introducing the second complexity, which is once I ask it what I want it, what I I need to know, it's eliciting some sort of an emotion inside of me, um, which is that that change, I'm gonna have to make a change. And so I I've got to ask the question to both of you what is complex about change? And and then I've got an example as well, but I'd I'd love to hear from both of you. Like we're we're the if if complexity is the star of the show, we're talking about two complex things. So Al, what's what's complex about change?
SPEAKER_02:Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Complexity of Change, a seven-hour podcast. Um I I think Phyllis just nailed it. It's readiness. And and and that readiness equates to at the end of the day, personal awareness. And so if you really root route, whatever the whatever, however you say that, if you really boil it all down to any level of change, um what is change but an action to modify with the hope of improving things? People don't make change to make things worse, typically, okay, unless you're tanking a stock or something. Uh people make change to improve, to to better, uh, to help. And the idea is A, do you understand what the help is? Do you understand why the help is occurring? Do you understand why uh and how it's benefiting? Do you agree with, believe in? Uh, you talk about homelessness, right? Like there's people that have multitudes of different value systems and belief systems about what causes homelessness. And so if you're going to change things, then you're you're you're addressing people's value systems. When I talk about value mapping, uh and uh I'm talking about the value within people, how human beings perceive, articulate, and communicate their own value. But it requires looking inward at both the emotional impact on people as well as the functional impact. Well, someone who's not ready to go that to that depth, um they're they're gonna be resistant. And so the complexity of change, I believe, is self-awareness. It is it that's what makes it so darn difficult.
SPEAKER_01:And I I think that's uh definitely an an element, Phyllis.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say there's a couple of elements in addition to that. One, simply just fear of the unknown. You know what you know, and when you change, you don't you don't know. You don't know the outcome for yourself, you don't know the outcome for your organization, you know what works. There's a risk factor in trying something, in doing something different.
SPEAKER_02:Or you think you know what works.
SPEAKER_00:Well, you think right, you think you know what works. You're tied to a particular paradigm because it is a paradigm shift to think differently, to do differently, to try it, to try physical exercise if you haven't done that, to believe what the data says about that, right? It happens, there's so many ways in which we're asked, like we're faced with opportunity to make a change, and there's some resistance to doing that. And that I think Marcus, the complexity of everything we've talked about on this show thus far. I think undergirding all of it is a fear of something, the unknown, of change, um, of of um being wrong, right? Of of being wrong. It could be in anything, anything like that. And also it's we're routine people. I mean, we're tied to the routines that we have. And to change that, especially if you're asking somebody to think um in ways that are counter to the ways they've been thinking, viewing, seeing, understanding anything, admittedly, can be really scary. And I you you both know me well enough to know. You get my high. Highest resistance. Nope, I don't want to do it. I can't do it. It's too much trouble. It's going to take too much time. When I have to change something about myself or something tied to the podcast or something tied to work, it's when you get my highest level of resistance, even though I always get to it at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_02:Mark, just real quick before you jump in, there's also exhaustion of that change. I think right now, I don't know historically. Change fatigue. Yeah, there you go. We've talked about it before. You've brought it up, Mark. But that change fatigue, I don't I don't know that in our lifetime we've had to deal with the volume and diversity of change fatigue. There's the health side of COVID, there's been the economic side, there's the sociopolitical side, economic side, technology side. The volume of change and the speed and pace with which change has occurred at an individual and systemic level has, I think, contributed even further to that fear. And then the last point is, Phyllis, I have to jump on what you just said, which is also I think about nonprofit boards right now. Look, I I work with lots of nonprofits. I have helped them raise millions and millions of dollars using unique approaches to events, right? And and approaches. They struggle to say, how do we create new revenue streams? We don't want to take that risk. And yet, this is the time that what's perceived as risk may be the only option available. But that that thought process is ingrained in, well, we've done it this way. So anyway, so all right, Mark.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, there's the there's the two pieces of that. One is there's the a tremendous amount of effort, if you're looking organizationally, right, to get people to follow that change. You you have to build some sort of story, some sort of vision of the future versus staying the same. And then two, I think that there's the the fear and the complexity of embarrassment, right? If you go down this new road and it and it completely fails, um uh what's that what's that say? I mean, I come from from big organizations that actually have change managers. And these are people who are who are hired on, they're sort of like project managers, but they're project managers of change to shepherd organizations through the amount of data and information to make a valid change in in that environment. And you know, back to the data piece, you know, we we talk about data science and uh all those pieces of data, but my gosh, I was messing with our stuff for social media today, and uh the amount of information that's just in social media, not even like regulated information, like actual data points, but there's just so much. Um and all that elicits change. So I I definitely think we have the fatigue of all of that.
SPEAKER_02:All right, I have a question for the both of you. We talked about readiness in the you know a few minutes ago. Um and this just popped into my head, but it's it's off the notes that you gave us, Phil. Do you think organizations invest enough time? And do you think we as people invest enough time in re in preparate readiness? Like I I think about hurricanes, right? In we live in Florida, there's hurricane preparedness, you know, you go to school, you go through a drill, they have the drills for the fire drills. I I it's almost like you need to prepare for change because we are so ill prepared for it. But yet systemically, education I mean professionally there's change readiness workshops, but it's not it's it's not institutionalized, I don't think. Thoughts?
SPEAKER_00:I I kind of have a probably not popular thought, but it's where I am in the world, so I'm happy to share it. For whatever reason.
SPEAKER_02:Sit down, Mark.
SPEAKER_00:Shush. Well, you better sit down. For some reason we've been conditioned to resist change. Not everybody, again, like generalized statement here, to resist it, to question it. And I heard what you said, I like never before, there's so much change going on. I think a little bit, a lot of generations would say there was so much change going on. And we know what we know in this particular generation, given all the things that we have now at our fingertips. So I acknowledge those things. I just can't help but think if the lesson I will speak for myself for me is to do more embracing of change, not to have it be, not to automatically come to it as so scary. It could be learning, it could be a beautiful experience, it could be seen as risk, but some level of analysis on how much risk we're willing to take. I just, I really mean this like most sincerely. I hope that the collective we can become more open to change. And I'm gonna say, particularly if it flies in the face of what we have been conditioned to believe, because there's a truth in there for everybody. Everybody will come to it themselves. Part of what I think makes change so complex is this um almost innate reaction to it, which is to resist it, to say no first. And then from that, we end up in a very different conversation instead of saying, wait a minute, having the courage, because it takes some level of courage to say, hmm. Go ahead, Mark.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, go on, finish your thought.
SPEAKER_00:Like what kernel of that is can I identify what the resistance is so that maybe I can move past it as like a baby step to take? If the no comes up super fast for change, or even if the no comes super slow, let's be true, let's I have a friend who says, let's read reality truthfully. So let's figure out what the resistance is about. There's going to be some answer in there. And I don't think that's overthinking. I just think that's good thinking. Because change is here. And I have found I think more than not, my willingness to embrace it has led made a much more peaceful pathway in life for me.
SPEAKER_01:So I I want you to think of a question. What is the the question here that um or the statement that is uh that is made to almost everyone at some point in either their personal or professional career?
SPEAKER_02:If it ain't broke, oh don't fix it.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's the almost that start of you know, that change resistance is you grow up in the world of, well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Okay, so why if something's not broken yet, or we can see the change that's a few years down the line, but it's not broken yet, maybe we shouldn't do anything yet. And I think I think that's where we start getting cong conditioned of of this uh of this change that you're you're you're talking about. I for me, uh when I've watched change happen, the biggest fear that I see in others is what's in it for me, the whiff'em, we call it, right? What's in it for me? Or what's gonna happen to me. And if there's a lot of change personally or organizationally, there's that fear of who am I, who am I becoming, what is my role? Uh I can see it as a as a parent, you know. Um, my oldest is uh off to college, my other uh my daughter is uh is a junior. When I'm when she's no longer home, what's my role? Right? If I'm a different type of parent, and at that point, and so there's change with that, which is fearful, and I'm resisting it. And so it's it's interesting at the the the different levels of of where this conversation is going.
SPEAKER_02:And in the experiences I've had, like one of the best lessons I had in change that carried through to my work with value mapping uh multitudes of times, but it was I was working with a company um uh called hospital physician partners. I had a CEO, Jeffrey Schillinger, and uh his twin brother, David Schillinger. Uh literally two brothers, twins, grew up in the streets of New York, and they had started this emergency medicine and hospitalist medicine management company. Uh, they acquired the company that I was working for. The next thing I know, we're like not 80 million anymore, we're like almost approaching 300 million. And we've got not only not just you know 400 employees, we're like 1,500 plus, blah, blah, blah. Jeffrey and David were relentless in ensuring that change was part of the conversation. Thus, communication was highly valued. And to make it as simple as possible, change was broken down into you can't change what you can't understand, and you can't manage what you don't understand. It was that simple. And so, whatever you as a leader, and this is what he would do, they would do. They would empower the clinical leaders, they would empower us. You know, I was a VP of marketing and comms, they would empower us to create the communication streams to discuss and ask questions like, hey, what does change look like for you? Define that in your role or define that in your team. And we would have those in micro versions as well as macro versions. And and and I think in in the world of change management, which I've spent a lot of time in, there's this thing, this thought process sometimes that at a at a at a business level, it's got to be this big monstrous m thing, okay, because it's been tied to the huge consulting firms. And change has been relegated at an individual level to, well, you gotta have an expert or a guru, otherwise you can't manage that change. When in actuality, change starts from within, and change is about the communication you have with yourself and those who are impacted by your change. And and that to me is another big constraint is we we are we are worse communicators now in many ways than we ever were before. For whatever the reason, that's a separate show on communication. But again, going back to what they said, it's like, well, you can't you can't change what you can't understand, and you can't manage what you can't change or yet understand. So I don't know. I think communication and the ability to articulate those things, what does change look like? What does it look like to you? How is it impacting us? That deters the ability to and and and in turn it affects your readiness.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I I think that also goes back to Phyllis, you talking about and starting the show off around data is you know Al, you said you know, you can't change what you don't understand. So it goes back to understanding the data and being willing to accept it and be willing to understand what type of change based on that data you need to do. So yeah, it does definitely tie together.
SPEAKER_00:And that can be personal data too, Mark. And Al, that's like what came up, Mark, when you were just saying that to me. It can be your own personal data if it's change, if it's change on a personal level, and we have to be awake enough to be aware that we are collecting data, whether it's in our bodies or in our minds, we're writing it down, we're journaling about it. But there is data there to help us create the path either to change or away from change.
SPEAKER_02:I just uh prior uh at the day of this recording of this show, um, I just met with my new endocrinologist. First time I'd ever met with her, just ran my blood work, usually do it every four months, but this was a six-month break. Uh again, type one diabetic, history of heart disease, all that jazz. Hey, insurance company, hope you're not listening. Um too late for that, buddy. I know, right? Yeah. Well, I don't have I think we have listeners in Singapore. I don't think my insurance company is from Singapore.
SPEAKER_00:Did I make that up that we have listeners in Singapore?
SPEAKER_02:Like like 30.
SPEAKER_00:That's a listeners in Singapore.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, well, 30 downloads. We don't know if they're actual listeners, you know. It might it might be a you're right. They're listeners. They're so thank you. What up, Singapore? Anyway, um, and so I uh I have my numbers, right? I got my data, and there was some great numbers. I dropped my A1C, my weight was down, all that. I remember in the beginning, when I got that information, I couldn't understand it. And I had a doctor, I'm not gonna call him by name, he's a great guy, but he was a great physician, but he struggled to communicate the data. This new endocrinologist I just met today, even though she knew I was a proactive patient, she had my medical history, she was able to articulate what this data meant because all I had to do was ask her the question. I said, I understand the numbers today as it relates to my status of where I should be and the baselines. What does this mean for me tomorrow? What does this mean for me 10 years down the road? Because that's what I'm looking at. And she was able to tell that story to me accurately without uh, you know, a bunch of pretense. She didn't get too technical. And and I I'm I was, as you were talking about Curtis, I was thinking about her. I can imagine another patient sitting in front of her who doesn't have the understanding and the grasp, still being um uh maybe assuaged, if you will, but still freaking out because what is their own level of understanding of that information coming into that meeting? And so what are people's thoughts coming into a meeting with Curtis? Right? Um, and that's another thing I think about in the communication of change is what is that person or where is that organization in its cycle of development? What has just happened three months, three days, three years ahead of that, before that change occurs? That and that goes to that change readiness. Um, people people's decisions and choices are colored by their experiences. Right? Mike, we come into this podcast and we record. If I say to you, as much as we all know each other, I say, hey guys, listen, we're gonna need to uh totally change the format of the show today. All right, we all trust each other, we have enough history, but even that love, if Mark, if you've had a bad day coming up to this and I don't know about that, that's gonna impact how how you adapt to that change. You may not, you may, you're not gonna hate me, but you may be less participatory in the show. And so that's the other question I think we need to be asking when we're talking about this change, Phyllis, is what is it, what are people coming, where are people coming from when they come into the change?
SPEAKER_00:I get that, but I'm gonna push back a little bit because if at some point, company organization, depending on who's leading, that's a barrier. At some point, sometimes that is just willful. It's too hard, I can't do it, I don't want to do it. And that, like in the in the presence of whether it is data, whether it is a a new approach, whatever it is, that's the part, and clearly you can tell from my voice, that just is frustrating to me and is is just not helpful given everything, given the world that we live in today.
SPEAKER_01:And I think what about the individual though? There's a term, there's a term for that though. Uh, and it's disagree and commit. So when an organization is going through a change or someone is asking you to change, um, there might be a reason that that change still needs to happen, whether you're on board or not. That's correct. And and um, and so we used to have a term at work that we would use of disagree and commit. So I disagree with this change, but because the organization is going that way, and I believe overarchingly that the organization's going in the right way, and that I want to roll within this, um, I'm willing to commit to this change. So that's so it's it's it's tough. That's true. It's it's necessary.
SPEAKER_00:That's true, Mark. I remember years ago I was doing some work with the national YWCA, and this was like I was young, and it was my first experience at that level. It was hundreds of women, hundreds. We I had we'd all put in countless hours, like year, like I think it was over a year. And I got to one of the meetings one time and I went and stood in a corner. I didn't weep, but I did have tears coming out of my eyes, and I said to myself, these are not the decisions that I would be making, but this appears to be like what the organization thinks it's best. I don't necessarily think it's best, but I get it. I'm gonna finish this out and then I'm gonna move on. Right. And and so I'm not gonna be a barrier. I'm gonna get with it. I'm still gonna maybe share my my thoughts when it seems appropriate. Um, and sometimes you have to do that. I mean, sometimes you literally have to do that.
SPEAKER_02:All right. I I'd like to to shift the focus to a more personal level here because we've been talking a lot about systemic change, organizational change. Um, and I'm gonna I'm gonna share, you know, not too too terribly in depth because that's about a 10-hour podcast. But um, I'm gonna bucket a change right now. Like the biggest I I thought change had occurred in my life, and and it has, I mean, plenty of times. I've gone through a divorce, I've gone through that sort of stuff, I've gone through business turmoil, blah, blah, blah. But right now, we all know, you know, we talk a lot. We're we're three of us are dear, dear friends. Um, I'm going through a massive change right now. A change about how I approach uh everything from finances to uh the my business, my time, my choices, uh what priorities are. Like everything for Al Emmerich right now is truly on the table. Um how I'm dealing with it, you know, blessedly a separate show, but the love of my friends and learning. But there is massive change going on around me right now. Some of that change was forced upon me because it's adapt or die. Some of the change has occurred because um I've learned, I've been listening. And I'm probably more attuned and aware right now. I always refer back to the octopus with, you know, the sensors around and being able to sense things. I'm just like walking around, eyes wide open. But the common thread in all of this is still understanding what needs to change. Understanding that I'm capable of the change. Filling myself with the support both through, you know, motivational, you know, religious, spiritual journaling, meditation. I'm using every tool capable to A stay aware, B, believe the change can occur, C, keep the hope going forth, and D keeping the vision of my life ahead. And so I'm asking you guys, I know that was a lot, but change is still that within. And so what are the what are your thoughts as it relates to individuals who are listening to this show right now going, I got a lot of change happening in my life. How do I how do I move and adapt? Like what is what is what is the comp how do I overcome the complexity?
SPEAKER_01:I think the first thing that comes to mind as you were saying the things that you're you're having to contend with in this change is, and for our listeners, is your value as a human does not change. So first and foremost, your environment may change. You may may need to move, you may need to get a new job, um you know, family member might be sick, and now you have to change roles and take care of them. Whatever that that thing might be, your individual human value is absolutely the same. And that's your constant.
SPEAKER_02:That's a powerful. That's a powerful notion. Because I think that's what I I know it from from challenging my own challenges, but also speaking with so many people for so many years, being able to look in that mirror and go, what is my value and what is my contribution margin to my own life as well as the things that are changing around me.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and it makes me think of the work that you do, Al, as you help people find their personal value. Because I in that change, people might lose vision of what that is. And and that's kind of the reason for me saying it is that you have to remember that that that's you've got to have some constance in your personal world. And I think that that's your character, your integrity, your value, who you are as a human. Um that because it in that change, to me, and and we've all talked about all the the things that have happened in all of our lives, if you don't have something to hold on to, it's sort of like when you're on a boat and you start getting seasick and they're like, well, check, you know, just focus on the horizon because it's not going to move, right? Just just stay looking at that. You've got to have something to anchor yourself in. Everything can't be changing. So what can you anchor yourself in during these rougher seas? So as you get through it, you you have that that that's that almost individual support, if you will. Because you may not have someone else to help through, help you through it. You know, we're we're blessed, we have each other. You somebody might not have someone else. Um so what is what is your constant?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, God, that's a t-shirt. What is your constant? That might be a mic drop. No, it's too early.
SPEAKER_01:I know. We're only four we're only 40 minutes in.
SPEAKER_02:And it's a seven-hour show. Phil?
SPEAKER_01:What's your take on your own? It's like the old telethon shows when they were raising money. What's your take on all this, Phil?
SPEAKER_00:Um The phrase that always keeps coming to mind is what are we what are we what are we running away from? And maybe it's not like when it comes to change, because we're it's hard. The instinct is to run away from it. Maybe it's we're running to something.
SPEAKER_03:I like that perspective.
SPEAKER_00:Maybe. Look, I don't like changing. You know.
SPEAKER_01:But that means you gotta be really clear on what you're running towards, right?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't think you do. I think there's I do. I think there's an element of I don't know. I think there's an element of you just don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Is it that you don't know or that you don't know necessarily how you're gonna get there? Both. Because you know, it's like it's uh like a vacation, right? You're like, hey, listen, I want to go to Europe. I have the opportunity to go, not 100% sure where we're gonna go yet, but I know I want to be able to see these things. So you got kind of a guided North Star.
SPEAKER_00:And I don't know if that's a good analogy or not, but I think like in the bowels of change, um like when my mom was my mom was already had had died, my dad got remarried, we were like with this new family that was um Hope they're not listening. They're not. Um and it was horrible. It was literally horrible. It was like the ultimate change. Like I dropped down in somebody else's family after being in one family. Um, it was terrible. And I was walking, it was dark. I was still in my neighborhood, but I was walking home, and I just remember at as plain as days sitting here. I put my hands up in the sky and just asked universally for help. No idea what was happening, no idea where I was going, no idea where I was gonna land. I did have a lot of faith I was gonna land somewhere, but the the outcome of that had absolutely no idea. And I didn't know for a really long time. That that change lasted for a long time, like the unknown variables, no groundedness in anything. And so um, I am not at all even suggesting that that made me more resilient to change. Sometimes I think it made me less resilient to change. Um, but I do go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:You let go, though, the power there, which wow, well, this we could go super deep here, but us what shocker you so I and I don't even know if this is gonna make sense. Um so disclaimer, we are not trained professionals. Um I did say it a Holiday in the Express once. What we haven't talked about is control. And I that might be another show. God, that has to be another show. Fact.
SPEAKER_00:I'm writing it down.
SPEAKER_02:Yep. Because if you think about change and all the elements you brought up before, Mark, about fear, well, all of us, but fear and it's about control. We have to, as human beings, we are drawn to our life is driven by what we can control, what sis, you know, what you know, power, control, the whole dynamic. And you at that point, you know, Phyllis, you could be plucked in the middle of anywhere and you're gonna survive because you experienced a massive lack of control that you learned how to control. I moved, not because of military, not because of trauma. Well, although my father died, but I moved five times between age birth and 12. Born in Connecticut. I mean, born in New York, lived in Connecticut, moved to San Diego, dad dies, moves to New Jersey, moved to New Jersey to Arizona, five years later from Arizona to Florida. Now I look at my life and I go, oh, I can adapt anywhere. I wasn't in control of any of that. But but that change was forced upon me, but now I so so I get it.
SPEAKER_00:I get it. There is a linkage, I would think, between resistance or openness to change and one's need to control. We've talked about a little bit about that on some of the other shows.
SPEAKER_02:Which is why it's so important, I think. And if you are a business leader, but if you're also yourself, having that if you're yourself, if you're yourself, if you're somebody else, please listen and bring both listeners. We want more downloads.
SPEAKER_00:If you're more than one person, bring both of you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:But but this is why we have to have those conversations because people will fear what they can't control. But when you give them the opportunity to have the conversation to say, what does change look like? What's my role to change? What is changing? Why am I changing, or why is this changing? Then you're enabling a greater sense of personal control through knowledge and insight. And I think maybe that's a good way for us to wrap this this up. Like what what are your what would be your tips? What would be your tips, Mark? Yeah, Mark for somebody who is going through change at a personal level or maybe it's a business, whatever, personal or business. What would be the tips that you would have just based on the conversation we've had?
SPEAKER_01:I I had a conversation with a friend the other day about this, and there was a lot changing, both professionally and and personally at the same time. And here's here's the advice that I would share with this family, and and I I I shared partially with him. One is uh understand what you can control and what you can't. And if you worrying about the stuff that you can't doesn't help it, then you don't worry about it. Just you have other things to worry about. Put put that aside. Uh some of those things you might just have to commit to that. It's changing. Two, have a North Star. I mean, for me, I I I think Phyllis, you were talking about maybe you don't need a direction. For me personally, I need some semblance of a direction. I need to know where to run. How fast, how long, what's it look like? Not really sure. But have a plan, even if the plan is the plan is going to change. Um, the other thing is expect it, right? Like we are in a world full of change. That's a whole nother show. That's that's a news station, right? Just watch the news. We're in a world of of of change. So expect it, right? If something is is going to come up. And so to be able to prepare yourself to know who you are, to know what you value, to know your own value, um, to know uh your integrity and your character, that's going to help shape the change of the things that you accept and you don't accept. I mean, I hearken back to Tyler's show, and he was able to lean on his integrity and his character and able to navigate the changes that he was experiencing. So have that for yourself. And and then finally, I I think supporting others in change helps ourselves change. So if if you know you're watching others struggle through that, um, being an ear, providing some advice, um, you know, just just being another fellow human uh is going to help you through your own change, but it's also gonna bring someone else up. And I think that's our purpose in life is to help others. And so uh, you know, help other people with the change and and your own change will become easier.
SPEAKER_00:Well said.
SPEAKER_02:Philonusco.
SPEAKER_00:Um I I would only add, consider leaning into change and spend some time thinking about what that what does that mean for you as a human being? What would it mean to lean into change? And then what I said earlier is true. Um maybe be still enough to listen to what your body is telling you as change is approaching, or if you're in the middle of it, or if you're on the back end of it. It's gonna tell you something. You're going to get some pieces of information that can help you navigate what that change is. And the last thing I would say is um it's okay if you're not ready for change, if it's something that's controllable, right? Like you can, if you have a choice in it. Same thing though, spend a little time understanding why, why you're not ready. Really getting truthful with yourself and clear about clear about that as part of just life's lesson and growing and learning.
SPEAKER_01:And Albert, yours?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I I second everything you guys have said, uh, so I'm not going to regurgitate too much of it. Uh I I think the one thing that that hasn't been said uh is don't stand in judgment of others and how they approach change unless you've walked in their shoes. We are really good as human beings at going Monday morning, Monday morning quarterbacking change in others. Um and going back to what I said earlier, you don't know what led up to that change for that person or those people, that organization. Uh second, if you're a leader, be humble about change. Because not everybody understands why change has to occur. Um and sometimes I've seen leaders be bold in their change, but but brash about it, shouting out about its glory and what it's gonna do and what it's gonna bring and what it's gonna mean, but not taking into consideration um how that's gonna affect others. And and so I think those two are semi-tied together. The last thing is just a a different version, but the same thing you've said, which is walk with a mirror and carry it all the time. A mirror can never hurt you if you get comfortable in front of it. I'm gonna say that again. That is a damn mic drop.
SPEAKER_00:That was good, Al.
SPEAKER_02:A mirror can never hurt you if you get comfortable in front of it. Because that to me is what I've seen in life from others, what I've learned from you guys, what I've learned from my dear, dear friends and family. Uh the ones who run from the mirror, ultimately, yeah, that's that's a problem. But the ones who run to it, hold, hold true to it, and and get comfortable in front of it, even when it's uncomfortable to look at what you see, what you look at, um, they make it. And I'm going through my own version of that, and it's it's tough, but it's a beautiful thing, and and I can keep my feet on the ground and go, oh yeah, I'm gonna be fine.
SPEAKER_01:That's gonna be okay. Can can we close the show with Man in the Mirror, Michael Jackson? Is that possible? Oh, darn.
SPEAKER_02:Did you just did you just channel Man in a Mirror after I did my mic drop?
SPEAKER_01:It was a beautiful mic drop. That's what I was thinking. If we ended with Man in the Mirror, just it'd go off and if you can like overlay that's style, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like you can when you're editing this, you can do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I just I think that that was that was a wonderful comment. I and I agree.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know if we're I'm gonna have to check the rules to see if uh ASCAP BMI and all that stuff, if we're allowed to play that song. Um but so I'll take a look. But if not, Phyllis can sing it for us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Ah that was that was a great mic.
SPEAKER_01:I think we should end that. We should definitely get out of the way. That was beautifully done. Yeah, get out going downhill.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, flush that song out. Good man. It's all right. Shall we exit the stall?
SPEAKER_00:We should.
SPEAKER_02:We should. Okay, let's um let's see if we can do this without any rehearsal. Okay, are you ready? I'm ready. It's gonna go Al, Phyllis, then Mark. And that order.
SPEAKER_00:This oh, can we start again? I didn't understand what was happening.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Here we go.
SPEAKER_01:This is the complexity of toilet paper. Did you say toilet and paper?
