The Complexity of Toilet Paper

From Perfectionism To Play: Getting Out of Your Own Way

• Complexity • Season 2 • Episode 22

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When pressure to be perfect kills your spark, how do you get momentum back? We sit down with creativity catalyst and author Melissa Dinwiddie to explore a simpler, braver path: process over product, micro experiments over massive bets, and empathy over information dumps. Melissa opens up about the decade she spent creatively stuck while making a living as an artist—proof that tying every act to revenue can strangle the joy that started it all. Her breakthrough came from embracing intentional imperfectionism and a playful rigor summed up in her delightfully direct mantra: play hard, make crap, learn fast.

We unpack a deceptively powerful idea: complex is not complicated. Complicated problems behave like recipes—optimize, control, and you get consistent outputs. Complex challenges are jazz—improvise, listen, and let something emergent take shape. That single shift explains why overcomplication is a fear response to ambiguity and why leaders need learning loops more than ironclad plans. Melissa shows how she builds psychological safety without the cringey “let’s play” framing, guiding teams through small, high-impact drills. The standout: her Time Traveler exercise, where you must explain a smartphone to someone from 1526 without getting condemned as a witch. It’s impossible by design, forcing empathy, analogy, and clarity—skills that turn buried insights into decisions people act on.

Along the way we talk creative identity (“I’m not creative” is a common myth), outcome obsession, and the comparison trap. We trade stories about letting go of applause and finding peace in the work itself. Melissa shares her Golden Formula—self-awareness plus self-compassion equals the key to everything good—and how returning to process actually improves performance. We also preview her new book, Innovation at Work: 52 micro experiments leaders can run in minutes to spark ideas, unstick teams, and build what’s next without sidelining day-to-day work.

If you’re ready to lead through uncertainty with curiosity and courage, this conversation is your roadmap. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs permission to make a small bet today, and leave a review with the one guidepost you’re claiming this week.

Melissa's new book, Innovation at Work, is a practical field guide for leaders, teams, and changemakers who are told to “innovate faster” without being given tools that work under real constraints. Instead of big frameworks or performative brainstorming, the book offers 52 micro-experiments—small, low-risk actions that help people:

  • Break perfectionism and fear loops
  • Learn faster from real conditions
  • Move forward even when certainty is impossible

This is not a book about creativity as self-expression. It’s about creativity as a survival skill in complex systems. Learn more and download a free preview at https://melissadinwiddie.com/publications/. The official release date is March 10, 2026.

Potty Time Open

SPEAKER_01

Sometimes I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated.

SPEAKER_05

Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get stuck. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. That's right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, worry not, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper. There's this little swirl of a big toilet. And oftentimes people look at the swirl and they go, I wish I was surfing. And they go, why do I think I'm surfing and looking at a toilet bowl? And in that moment, they don't realize that their creativity is being unleashed because that's what a child would do. That's what children do. They look at the toilet as a PlayStation. They look at it as a place to throw their poo and uh and make sing songs. No, they do. You just don't remember as a child that you used to do that. And I used to have a character called Hooflung Pooh that I would play with in the toilet when I was a small child.

SPEAKER_03

This is more than anybody wants to have.

Meet Melissa Dinwiddie

SPEAKER_05

And so why is Al sharing this very personal childish story? That's what we want to know. The reason is because we have invited into the stall Melissa Dinwiddie, who has just written a book, but that's not even the coolest part. She is one of the most creative innovators, fun people, amazing, awesome people. And I knew that she wouldn't quit the show after I said that.

SPEAKER_03

Because she wants to be associated and introduced with poop. With poop.

SPEAKER_05

No, I didn't say poop. I said poo.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_05

And maybe that was Winnie the Pooh.

SPEAKER_02

That's where my mind went. Thank you. I will state for the record.

SPEAKER_05

Thank you. Hi there. Welcome to The Complexity of Toilet Paper, another open that uh has never been choreographed, should never be repeated, and has probably cost us the remaining few downloads that we've ever experienced in our show's history. Melissa, we figured out a while ago that I am collectively, individually, and superficially responsible for the regression of downloads and listeners because of the open.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know, that's that's something to be known for.

SPEAKER_05

Why not? Why not? Hi, I'm Al Emmerich. Hi, I'm Mark Pollock.

SPEAKER_03

Hi, I'm Phyllis Martin.

SPEAKER_05

And joining us in the stall is Melissa Dinwiddie. Yay!

SPEAKER_03

Yay!

SPEAKER_05

Melissa, we could uh do all these formal introductions of big voices saying, our guest today is so-and-so, who's but we would much rather allow you to uh deliver your own introduction. So um what would you love? Knowing what we're gonna unpack today, right? We're gonna we're gonna talk about innovation, creativity, but most importantly, the complexity of innovation and creativity, but through a completely different lens. But um we're not uh we don't want this to be that typical kind of like, hey, tell us about your first moment when you felt creativity and you know what led you to this career. I mean, that is interesting, but you have such a beautiful take, and your mind is so wonderful, and you are so true about about just stepping into the mirror, and that's what this show is about, right? Although we don't recommend having a mirror in the in the in in front of the stall, but that's another topic. Be that as it may, please tell the world uh of folks that are listening to us in the stall all about you. What do you want them to know?

SPEAKER_02

No pressure here. Uh well, I think given this uh intro, and by the way, can I just have your voice whenever I'm being introduced anywhere?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, AI can make it possible.

Overcomplication And Intentional Imperfectionism

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, that's probably true, but it wouldn't be you. Um you know, uh I will share with the world that you sent me some questions in advance of this conversation. And the first question that you asked me is about was about making life what what what speaks to me about making life less less complicated. And I just have to share, like I am kind of the world's biggest overcomplicator. And and I think that that well, maybe not the world's biggest, but I I really uh identify as an overcomplicator. So that's one thing that I'll share. And I think that that really ties into how I define myself now as an intentional imperfectionist. Because I think I think there's something that overcomplicators and perfectionists may have in common.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I'm seeing some head nods here. Oh God.

SPEAKER_05

Well, you gotta remember that the three of us came together with a unified, oh my God, where's the that was easy button? Oh, we don't own one. None of us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think that I think that part of my journey to where I am now and to where I'm continually trying to get to is that constantly trying to find the where uh where's the easy button? Because my default is to go to the overcomplication button.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Well, you're in good company.

SPEAKER_05

And and the listeners are going, damn, they finally got a guest that actually does specifically what they talk about. So tell us about just kind of give us the uh the business card here. Like, what what is your company? What are you doing so that uh those who didn't read the bio about the show can know, like, you know, who is this woman? What does she do?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so my company is called Creative Sandbox Solutions, and I work with leaders and teams of companies. Specifically, my sort of sweet spot is people, leaders who work with analytical folks, people who identify as I'm not creative, although I also have worked with creative teams as well because they have their own struggles. But I have a framework that I call the Create the Impossible framework to help teams and organizations achieve more breakthroughs and innovations. And it's a three-step framework. And it comes from my own background. I don't come from corporate, I've never worked in a corporate environment as an employee. I come from a creative background. And as a creative, as an artist, as a professional artist, I struggled with creative block. Before I became a professional artist, I self-identified as a non-creative person for many years. And when when I was making my living from my art, I really struggled with I didn't actually have a problem filling my deadlines for my clients, but where I struggled was making art for my own enjoyment, which is why I became a professional artist in the first place.

SPEAKER_06

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02

So here I was making my living as an artist, which is like the holy grail for artists, right? Artists are always trying to make a living from their art, which I was doing, but I was living a miserable life, and I felt like I was living the most uncreative life possible because I wasn't doing the very thing that I got into being a professional artist in order to do, which was making art in order to, you know, feed my spirit.

SPEAKER_05

Man. Alright, so Phil, I I was Melissa, we don't we don't choreograph very much in this show. Uh by the way, for those of you uh sitting in the stall with us today, Phil will need to potentially leave the show a little early. So if just so you know, if her voice disappears from the show, it's not because we kicked her out of the stall or she got flushed. Uh it's because she had to leave to go do something very important because everything Phyllis does is important. Right?

SPEAKER_03

So wrong. Good grief.

SPEAKER_05

Phil, I obviously we know I had a question, but I saw your head nod. Do you want to you want to break in with your with a question in response to that?

SPEAKER_03

I have like 12,000 questions just hearing you, Melissa, just say those words. But one of the things I got super excited about when I was reading about you and just looking at some of your clips is how.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, that's her dog. That's her Finn.

SPEAKER_04

Finn's very excited about this conversation and wanted to make sure that he gets Finn.

SPEAKER_05

Finn was reading your website too. Yeah. I'm having a lot of people. We just don't understand, we don't understand Bark, so we don't know what he's saying.

SPEAKER_03

Um is I can try to see if I can make him stop for a second if we talk. Okay. So was that how I'm paraphrasing what you said, by the way, but how creative people don't typically identify as creative, which just blew my head off when I heard you say that. One. Two, now that I'm hearing you and you're here in the stall with us, I'm thinking how um I would never, for various reasons, like go into the corporate sector because of my pers like the perception in my head that it would be too rigid and I would never be able to express myself in the creative ways that I want to. Um, so I'm fascinated about how you found yourself in the space that you that you're actually in. And the notion that actually doing the art that you love could somehow be unfulfilling because of the different lenses that get applied to that when you're in the midst of doing that, I is I think just rings true for so many people who are creative or innovative. And there's something, there's usually an overlay that takes that happens that sucks the life or the energy out of the thing that we say that we love the most. So I'm really excited to be able to unpack some of this with you. Um, and I'm excited for me, but I'm really excited for our listeners.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, let me speak to the last last item first. And that is it's really easy for something that you love, that you're really passionate about, for all the joy to be sucked out of it. And if you apply a layer of commerce on top of whatever it is you love and are passionate about, uh, that can suck the joy out of it really fast. Uh, my mom had um a really good friend who loved to cook. And everybody was telling her she would make these amazing spreads for people, and everyone said, Oh, you should be a caterer. And so at one point she decided to do that. And for about six months, she pursued that and she put up her shingle as a caterer, and then she suddenly quit. And it was only like six months. And she showed up at you know, some party somewhere, and people said to her, you know, what happened? Why did you decide to quit? And she said, Well, let me put it this way. I really love sex, but I don't want to be a prostitute. Great analogy. Right? Yeah, I guess. And that that is what happened to me with my visual art. Now, I have to say, when I first started making art, and I was so just enthralled with I had rediscovered my creativity after 15 years of believing I'm not, I'm not as, you know, all these people over here, they're the artists, they're the creatives. I don't get to do that. So I'm I don't I'm not as good as them. So therefore I'm not a real artist, I'm not a real musician, so therefore I don't get to do it. So I just quit. Age 13, I stopped making art. Age 15, I stopped making music. Boom, I was done. So now, side note, I did pursue dance for a number of years, and I went and ended up going to Juilliard for a year, then I got injured. That was the end of that, whatever. But for 15 years, I didn't do any almost no art, no music, whatever. Then at 28, I came back to it and I dove into it. And it was like, you know, uh, if you've seen the movie The Wizard of Oz, and the whole like first section, it's all in black and white. And then Dorothy gets uh goes into the house and she gets swept up in the tornado and she opens the door after the house lands from being swept up in the tornado. She opens the door and suddenly she's in Oz and everything is in technicolor after being in black and white in Kansas. That is how my life felt when I rediscovered art and creativity. It was like, oh my God, I get to have this. I do not have to be um, I don't know, Picasso or Prince, or, you know, you name the famous, amazing, genius person. I just get to have this thing. It was amazing. And I fell in love with it and I just spent hours and hours and hours a day pursuing uh calligraphy and painting and all these different things. Fell in love with the art of calligraphy and just pursued it. And suddenly people were starting to say, Oh, can I can you do this thing for me? I'll pay you. Can you do this thing for me? I'll pay you. And I kind of fell backwards into this little, at the time it was just a little hobby business. Then I ended up getting divorced and I had to turn this hobby. I had to decide, do I turn this hobby business into a real business or do I go and get a job? And because I didn't believe that I had the skills, that I didn't think anybody would hire me for any kind of you know, real job that would pay the bills, I thought, you know what? I can make this work. And so that's what I decided to do. But what happened was I bought into a story in my head that everything I made had to bring in money. That I that if I made anything that didn't bring in money, I was wasting time. Yeah. And that it was frivolous, it was a waste of time. And I put a so much pressure on myself that everything I made had to be amazing. And when you put that kind of pressure on yourself, it's paralyzing. So that everything I made, when you have that kind of pressure on yourself, what happens is you just stop. What happened to me, and this I know this happens to for other people as well, you just stop making anything.

SPEAKER_04

I think that's where the the overthinking, the complexity comes in because once because that's a lot of thought.

unknown

Right.

Commerce Pressure And Losing Joy

SPEAKER_04

Yes. And and it's a it's a lot of debate in your head, it's a lot of what ifs in your head. And you know, I I want to go back to something that you said, and and we I don't we don't have to sit on it very long, but we we've had the opportunity to talk to a couple of artists, you know, whether they're um community artists or comedians or whatever, and it's it's very interesting. You had said, you know, you go into it not thinking that you have to be someone like Prince or um whomever Picasso. Um I think the difference though um is they were just discovered, they're not any better, right? They they were just discovered at a different time and a different place. So you you are a Picasso, you are a prince. They just they just happen to have an agent and someone found them. Um you know what I mean? So uh I I think it's important too for people to understand that as uh as they're maybe taking what you're applying to physical art or musical art or or whatever the case may be, it's the same thing within their jobs. Uh you've talked about never being in corporate. I am um I'm in higher ed, but it's you know, it's it's kind of like a corporate world. And um you know, a lot of what you're saying is resonating uh because you you you have to be creative, you have to be thoughtful, but you you can overthink it until it's not fun anymore.

SPEAKER_05

And yeah, and the the irony here, Melissa, so transparency. Melissa and I met um for the very through the very same lens that Tyler Schultz, who was formerly one of our guests, met, uh we both participated with Chris West. Love you, Chris, shout out. Um, and in his uh um keynote speaking retreat, you know, and the interesting thing, Melissa, is that um my uh need, and it was a need to make money, and Phyllis and Mark lived this with me, uh was so driving uh the fun out of it, and it was also the other thing is it drives you into a multiplicity of choices that are bad decisions because you end up chasing a dollar and not focusing. So it's like, oh, this doesn't work. Oh, well, well, you haven't even you don't even know if it works, you idiot. It's like you didn't even give it the run, it was just a great experience, and then it's oh something else, and then it's something else. And so you talked about, and then Phyllis, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but Phyllis is as Melissa's talking, I'm thinking about you with music coming back to music.

SPEAKER_03

I was thinking the same thing, and and you know, Melissa, my own experience is like very same thing. I love to sing, dropped it when I was a kid, never came back to it until recently. And the thing I've discovered discovered in that process is I've just chose to let go of any end result. I'm just letting it go. And so I'm singing because I love to sing. I'm singing songs I love to sing and stories that I want to tell because that's what makes me feel human and alive and authentic and like I'm doing the thing I was supposed to do. And I actually said this to my uh voice coach the other day. I don't really care. This is this is big for me. I don't really care what people think after I'm done singing. Like I'm gonna do my first set in a couple of months. I do not care. I did this in a very selfish way for me. I hope you get something out of it, like I hope it translates across and out, but that's not the point. Yes, at all. And that's really translated into my work work too, in in various and sundry ways, which has made my life much easier and brought a sense of peace and and um quiet competence, shall I say, um, to the work I'm doing. It was letting go of that end result, whatever that end outcome. I am not tied to it. I just know what makes me feel alive, what brings me joy, what I really love doing, and in many ways think I was actually called to do. And a lot of things got twisted um on the road. Like, um, but now here we are.

Process Over Product As A Lifeline

SPEAKER_02

I so relate to that. And in fact, in my my book, The Creative Sandbox Way, is based around 10 guideposts that I developed to get myself out of Creative Stuck, which is I was almost completely blocked for about a decade during that period of time when I was when I had this professional art career. During that time, by the way, I turned to music as my creative outlet, and I ended up becoming a jazz singer on the side. So it's not like I was completely completely creatively blocked, but I was blocked from doing the visual art that I had so loved. And so finally I the way that I was able to get back to it, this is around the 2010, uh, 2011 time period, is I developed a set of, at the time I called them rules for myself because I am a rule follower. And I developed this handful of rules that over a year or two I expanded into 10. I changed them to guideposts because most creatives don't like rules, but guideposts are okay. And so those 10 guideposts form the backbone of my book. And guidepost number two is think process, not product. And uh exactly the same for me. Anytime I find myself getting caught up in the that outcome, it is toxic for me. And it it ends up not, I don't, I I the ironic thing is I end up not. Do not creating my best work. And yeah, it's like I turn it turns me, it's like I end up devouring myself and not coming up with my best work. And it's completely toxic. Whereas if I can focus on feeding myself and being in the process and what gives me joy and what makes me feel good. And yeah, it's great if this also makes you happy or gives you something that makes me happy as well. But it's not about that. It's not about impressing you. It used to be for me, it used to be so important for me to impress other people and like be the best at whatever I was doing. That used to be so huge for me. And it's been just this incredible journey of growth for me to get to this place, just like you were sharing, fellas, of being able to let that go. And I'm not saying that I'm done with that journey.

SPEAKER_05

It's it's we're never done with that journey.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It's it's a constant life journey for me. But but the the ability to be aware of that and to see where I'm starting to fall back into, I'm feeling the need to oppress other people, or I'm starting to feel competitive, or you know, I'm comparing my work or where I am with other people. Like just when when Mark was sharing, you know, you're as good as Prince or whatever, my in my internal voice was going, well, actually, no, I'm not. And then I had to sort of pull myself back and say, it's not about whether I'm as good as Prince or not as good as Prince. It's about where I am in my journey and what's feeding me. And it doesn't matter if I have the same chops or the same skills or the same because I'm not Prince anyway. You know?

SPEAKER_05

So so let's let's put a pause on that because, well, first of all, thank you for the immediate dive into the just the vulnerability, Melissa. I mean, seriously, thank you.

SPEAKER_02

That's Al, that is one of my superpowers.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, well, I think we we talked about that, and it's a bond that I think was before we knew it was a bond, because that that's that's why the three of us love being in the stall together. You know, we we we've learned how to be vulnerable together, but also it's a natural state and and desire. So let's go back out for a moment because you know, we've got people who are, I mean, this is probably part one of what will be multiple shows down the road. We always say that when we have a really intriguing guest on. Um, and you are definitely intriguing, and we won't cover all the bases. But you said something early on um in our pre pre-conversations that I think is a cornerstone for the show. And if we don't even talk about anything else other than your tips, which we're gonna get to, and by the way, if you're listening to the show, yeah, we're gonna talk about Melissa's book, we're gonna talk about those 10 steps or 10 guideposts. But before we get there, uh, and I'm gonna I'm gonna read from my notes, you said complexity is not the same as complicated. I can't begin to tell you when you wrote that how the three of us felt because we literally spent hours discussing that, not only just in the naming of the show, but the early stages of how we were gonna approach these topics. And so I I felt and we felt like, oh my God, was she in the room? So unpack that for us. Complexity is not the same as complicated.

Complex vs Complicated: Jazz Not Recipes

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I remember when I first heard that explained to me, and it was a real light bulb, and I don't remember who I heard that from. I wish I could credit them because I didn't come up, I didn't come up with that realization myself. But the metaphor that I sent to you is complicated is baking. You follow the recipe, you control the variables, and you get a cake. Complex is jazz. You show up, you listen deeply, you respond in real time, and something emerges. But you don't solve jazz, you play it. So, and then if we're gonna go with uh, you'll be very happy I brought toilet paper.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_04

Right. It says who gives a crap on it.

SPEAKER_02

I love that paper's plain.

SPEAKER_04

I know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, this is uh during so during the pandemic, and this will be relevant in a moment. During the pandemic, I I remember right before the shutdown, the uh going being in Trader Joe's and thinking, should I get two things of toilet paper? Oh no, I don't want to be a hoarder. And then I suffered because we couldn't get toilet paper. Oh, uh we actually ended up ordering these like really weird uh toilet papers without core, without a core from yeah. Yeah, oh yeah, it was miserable. So I finally, when I discovered who gives a crap, uh and I I got a subscription when I was the when they finally uh were opened up to new subscriptions.

SPEAKER_04

We'll have to take a screenshot of of all that. Yeah, we will for sure, for sure.

Play Hard, Make Crap, Learn Fast

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So anyway, to bring it to the toilet paper metaphor, to the stall metaphor, toilet paper manufacturing is complicated. It's a system that you can understand, it's complicated. But toilet paper shortages during a pandemic, that's complex. That has way too many variables going on. So overcomplication is often a fear response to complexity. When we don't trust what we know, when we don't trust learning, we we reach for control. And you know, when problems are complicated, what works is analysis, right? Optimization, execution. Those things all work when problems are complicated. But the challenge is that when problems are complex rather than complicated, all that stuff doesn't work. What works is actually more akin to what Phyllis was talking about before. Play, experimentation, learning. And that actually gibes with my create the impossible framework, which is play hard, make crap, learn fast. Crap, by the way, which is very in alignment with the stall metaphor.

SPEAKER_05

That wasn't missed. That wasn't missed by the team. So when when people so when and Phil, if you if because because you do need to leave early, I you you have full full rights to just say, Oh, shut up, I need to ask my question. Of course.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05

You're welcome. Which I know you would anyway. So you have this play hard, make crap, and learn fast. Um when you are working with businesses, when you are working with individuals, two questions. First of all, how off how much of your time are you spending undoing or or helping them see the difference that you just alluded to, the difference between the complexity and the complicated? Because that's the barrier to saying it's okay to play hard. That's the barrier to the confidence that I can actually make crap, uh, or them thinking that literally they make crap. And then, of course, those two are the barriers to learn fast because they won't have the confidence or the brain path. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, no, it makes total sense. And I think that this conversation is helping me think more about being more explicit about shining a light on that, on that difference for my clients. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05

Because when they call you and they say, hey, come see us, we need you, they are trying to uncouple something that to them is complex or complicated because they haven't solved some sort of a problem, correct?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I I mean, to be quite honest, to date, most of the challenges that clients have come to me with are more specific around like we need help around a specific communication challenge that we have. And my goal is to get more work around the creativity and innovation.

SPEAKER_05

So they don't view, but do they even understand? Let me just ask you this. Do you think like this is a show about unpacking this very topic? How do we make our life more simple, one compli uh one conversation at a time? But at the cornerstone of simplicity is this roadblock of how do we define simplicity? More more importantly, how do we define complexity and complication? Phil.

Adult Resistance To Play And Safety

SPEAKER_03

I'm I'm really, really curious, and I'm gonna try to formulate a question, but I trust you will pick up on what I'm trying to what I'm thinking about. I am very curious about the connection between adults' willingness to play and simplifying life or simplifying the process to finding a solution. And I'll use myself as an example. When I was, again, like looking at some of your videos, I was like, oh no, no, no, no. I don't want to have to play. Every time I'm in a group and somebody says, Oh, we're gonna take out toys and we're gonna play. That's not what they say, but you know what I mean. I'm like, nope, I'm not playing. I don't want to play. I don't like those toys. I'm going in a corner. And then after I get through with the exercise, I'm like, oh my God, I had the best time. That was the best thing ever. So I feel like there is like a really tight connection between one's willingness to let go in that way and to decomplicating things because I think play in some ways is the anecdote to um fear or distrust in ourselves. There's something there there, and I'm curious if if there really is, given given how you use that as a tool.

SPEAKER_02

I think you're absolutely right. And I uh and I typically don't use the word play for exact for exactly the the reasons that you say, because we have uh we we have associated that word with children and frivolity and things that are not important in in this culture, in this, you know, puritanical work ethic culture, right? So it's not it's not to anybody's advantage, unfortunately, if I use the word play, if I use the word improv, which is a you know one of the tools that I use quite a lot in my work. I don't use that word very much because people are going to jump straight to, oh my God, I'm gonna have to be funny. I'm gonna have to get up on stage in front of my peers who I want to look professional and always present as excellent, and I'm going to feel embarrassed and be ashamed. And that's not what I do with people. So I don't use those words. Um so that's one thing. Do I encounter resistance? Sometimes I do, but I'm pretty skilled at um creating psychological safety in a room and scaffolding activities so that by the time we get to the activities that where there might be more resistance, people are inclined to not have as much resistance to them. Does that make sense? It does.

Communication Gaps In Research Teams

SPEAKER_04

It does. Help us understand, Melissa. Um you said that you know, in in your business, you're you're going to do other people's business, helping them solve problems. I'm I'm curious. You said it's around communication uh potentially. Um, but I'm curious what problems you're you're seeing organizations deal with today where uh where complexity and complications are the intersection of what you're trying to fix. So what what what what you know what are you seeing there?

The Time Traveler Exercise

SPEAKER_02

Well, I can share just uh some a few examples. Like I've done a lot of work with some research teams, uh user experience research teams, where the teams are not seeing their insights being spread throughout the organization because the individuals in the teams are, you know, for example, come from highly trained academic backgrounds. They all have PhDs, and they're trained in certain ways of communicating that are not effective in the corporate environment that they're now in. So they're trained, for example, to uh argue their point and dig in their heels with their arguments and kind of a you know, more sort of a belligerent tone, and they bury the lead when they send emails to people. They fire hose people with information, thinking that if I just give all the information that I have about the topic, that that's gonna be the most effective way to present the information. They use uh researches jargon that their cross-functional teammates don't understand. So they're they have this really important piece of information that they're trying to share, but it's just going over people's heads. So these are some examples. They don't have uh the essential empathy to understand where their audience is coming from. So they they don't have this sense of common ground and understanding of where of their audience's context and perspective in order to be able to share information in a way that their audience is going to be able to take it in. So that's one example. So I come in and I run small activities that are play-based. Shh, that don't tell anybody, that get them to identify, like start to feel unfeel sort of metaphorical muscles and build these metaphorical muscles so that they can start to communicate in new ways that are going to be able to help them to connect with their different types of audiences in more effective ways so that the really important insights that they their research is uncovering for them can be spread more effectively throughout the organization. So let me give you one example of an activity that I might that I run quite a lot that's really, really effective and impactful. It's called time traveler. So, and I do this virtually, I do this in person, it's super effective either way. I divide people up in pairs. One person is from the present time, nothing's changed for them. The other partner is a time traveler from 500 years ago. So before I send people off into their set you know, breakout rooms or a different part of the room if we're in person, I ask people, okay, it is so say we're uh in January of 2026. The time traveler is from uh 50, what is what is it, 1526? 1526. So what would life be like for this person? How is their daily life different? And we do some little popcorn of how life would be different for that person from 1526. So, how would life be different? And let you know, the three of you, how is life different for somebody from 1526?

SPEAKER_04

Right. Hmm. Oh, a lot. You want you wants to answer that? We wouldn't have the show. Uh that's that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02

Like literally, yeah, you wouldn't have this show, exactly.

SPEAKER_05

Right. We wouldn't be sitting inside a warm room. Wouldn't, you know.

SPEAKER_02

No set no central heating, right? Right. No toilets.

SPEAKER_05

Phyllis, Phyllis would knowing her brain would still be the brain it is today, she would probably be whipped and strung up somewhere for that, yeah. Because her voice would not be heard. We won't comment on that, even what it is today.

SPEAKER_06

Right? Right.

SPEAKER_05

Mark and I, Mark and I might have hair back then, but I probably would have had hair. No, we we wouldn't be yeah, we wouldn't have access to food. I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, different different clothes, different food. Like we go down the line, and so we spend a couple minutes on that. Then I send people off. Before I send people off, I say, okay, present time person, you you're gonna imagine that your cell phone just went off. And you uh are gonna have to explain to your time traveling partner what this device is. But remember, there's a very high likelihood that your partner is gonna think you're a witch. And so not only do you have to explain what the cell phone is, but you're going to have to convince them not to condemn you to burn at the stake. You have two minutes. Go.

SPEAKER_06

Now it's an impossible, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02

Wow. It is an impossible task. It's impossible. And then it generates a lot of laughs. People come back after the two minutes, and it really is impossible. I've done it myself. And and then I pull the room. How many witches are in the room? Half the room raises their hand. But then I ask, okay, what did time travelers, what did your partners do? Did anybody have a partner that did something that was effective? Somebody did something. Somebody did something, and it always has to do with finding some sort of analogy that was relevant to their partner. They found some kind of common ground and they found an analogy that made sense in the context of their partner. So then, knowing that, I have them switch roles, I give them a new task. It's not a cell phone, this time it's something different, and I send them off and they do it again. And we come back and then I debrief again. How many witches? There's still witches, but there's fewer witches, and we debrief again. And then, of course, I ask them, you know, you're not gonna run into a it's highly unlikely you're gonna run into somebody from 500 years ago, but you are gonna run into somebody who has different context from you. What does this have to do with your, you know, work life, with your daily life?

SPEAKER_04

See, I think that's so cool. Um, I I mean, I I I even would think what was eight late 1800s that Alexander Graham Bell invented the uh the phone. I mean, how hard would it be to describe a cell phone to the guy who invented the phone?

SPEAKER_02

Seriously.

SPEAKER_04

Like, could you imagine having to explain what he invented today?

SPEAKER_02

Right?

SPEAKER_04

That would be that would be crazy. Um I I get this image uh as you're talking about this uh as as uh a tool to to resonate with people. So my mind goes to visuals of of the art that you're creating, um, whether it's physical art or art on a canvas or or song, it's like walking thro someone through almost like a museum to see what's going to resonate with them in order for them to appreciate um what they're what they're looking at and and what they need to do. Um because people don't resonate the same way. You can't communicate to the C-suite the same that you communicate to a you know a a big group of people, and and so using this art um really allows um really allows a lot of people to to appreciate it.

Letting Go Of Outcome And Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_05

Speaking of appreciation, uh Phil just had to leave the stall, so just want to let everybody know. But she was like waving and she's I she is she is so bummed right now because I think she's got a massive crush on you, and uh you you're we need to get her signed up on your book club, uh your book launch team, because she will push this stuff out. So awesome. No, I know she would. Well, all of us will, but I know Phil would specifically and join me. So uh listen, Melissa, there's there's a million there's so much you could teach us. Um, and thank you for teaching that moment. Um I got I want one more question before we do our roll-up, and then of course we want to get to the stall. But um you are your book is called Innovation at Work. Yes. Okay. Um but you also have the creative sandbox way, and so this is kind of a dual thing. Because I don't want to I don't want to lean in too much to the corporate stuff. I want to I want people who individually are just trying to find their own path to creativity and freedom. So um what is the struggle that you see from everyday Jane and John Doe's um that you talk to that come up to you whether it's a corporate gig or not and say, Hey, I'm I'm really struggling in this. Because I want to tee up that affinity before we deliver kind of some of your tips to really get People going, oh, I need me some of that, so I'm gonna buy that book. But more importantly, the follow-you because so much of what you write about helps people, not just in the business world, but in the real world.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you know what I hear over and over again from so many people is just that I'm not creative. I don't identify as creative. I don't think I'm creative. I hear that over and over again wherever I go. So that's a big one. And then regardless of whether people identify as creative or not, there's this consistent strain of perfectionism and the comparison trap. That we we are all hit with this.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. We hear that in every we hear that, Mark, we heard that from Toby, we heard it from all of Maul, you know, musician. I mean, our own selves, right? Gosh. So so when you hear that from people, like what in your mind is the breakthrough that people have to have to give them license to step forward?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think I think part of it is you know recognizing that you're not alone. That that is something that we all struggle with. No matter how how sort of big you get, no matter how famous you get, no matter how popular your work is, everybody struggles with that. And in fact, the more you know famous you are, the the bigger those demons get. So they don't, they never go away. And just knowing that can actually really help sort of tam down those demons, those gremlins I call them gremlins. And the the guideposts in my book, The Creative Sandbox Way, have been just phenomenally helpful. I mean, I wrote the book for myself.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I to I developed those guideposts because I needed them so badly. You know, we teach what we need to learn. And and you know, the second one say say that again.

SPEAKER_05

Say that again, because that's huge. That's a sorry, Mark, she gets the first mic drop. Say that again, please.

SPEAKER_02

And I didn't make this up. We teach what we need to learn.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's so true.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And the reason that right. I mean, the the reason I'm so passionate about this is because it is it is my biggest bugaboo. You know, it's the thing that that I'm constantly fighting against and struggling with and dancing with, you know. I mean, in this moment when things are so challenging in the world right now, I, as a former professional creativity instigator, I mean, this is what I a big part of what I used to do during the time when I was a professional artist, I also was a professional creativity instigator, creativity coach, helping other people get creatively unstuck, you know, B to B2C. I ran creativity coaching programs, creativity community online, creativity retreats, creativity courses online, helping other people get creatively unstuck, using the guideposts from my book, The Creative Sandbox Way. Like what worked for me, I discovered worked for other people as well. And so I, you know, I was helping other people. But here's the thing, you know how they say the the cobblers' kids go without shoes? Yeah, it's so much easier to coach other people than it is to coach ourselves, right? But here's what I always say you know, we're always gonna stumble. That's not the problem. The most important thing is simply getting back on the wagon and doing so with just the m utmost self-compassion.

The Roll-Up: Playful Bathroom Questions

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I really that resonates with me because there's there's there's there's two a couple things that I've heard recently that that sound like that. And and one is when when people are I'm I'm talking to somebody and they're they're stuck, uh a lot of times what I'll share with them is well listen, if I was in your shoes, what what advice would would you give me? You know, and then why the other piece is then why can't you do that for yourself? Right? And so You did that to me. The other day, the other day I um I was driving down the highway and there was trash on the road and I couldn't swerve because I was on a bridge, and my daughter was in the car, and it was either go into a semi, hit a car that was next to me, or hit this piece of wood that was in the road. And so I hit the wood and um cracked the rim of my front tire, blew the tire. Thank God the car drove fine. I was able to get off the bridge, but I had to drive about a mile on a blown tire and cracked rim and pull over to the side. Long story short, it was a lovely$1,800 later. Um Wow. And and I remember being really, really, really, really pissed off at myself. Um, even though it wasn't my fault, I I was angry at me. I was thankful nothing happened. And I had to sit there and use my own advice and say, well, if my son had called me or my daughter had called me and said I blew a tire because I hit something on the bridge, I wouldn't be like, oh my God, I can't believe you cost me$1,800. But first uh you okay? Tell you know, it's fine, it's just a car, no one gives a shit. It's gonna be no one cares. Like, well let's just get it fixed and we'll move on with life. Um, but I couldn't do that. And so, you know, I I think that that comes down to a lot of what you're saying, too, is um just being able to give yourself permission for some grace and permission to take advice that you would give another person.

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04

That's a great analogy, Mark. Thank God you're okay. Oh my god. That was scary. Actually, it was really scary. I was scared. I was like really scared.

SPEAKER_02

Sounds terrifying.

SPEAKER_05

All right. So so on that note, I think we are going to turn around. Actually, no, we're gonna roll into reverse. And and it this is the first time we've ever done this without Phyllis, and so weird. This is kind of bummer, but but it's alright. We're we're we we'll have it. Melissa, we have something that we call the roll-up. That's right. This is when we step into the stall to unpack and unravel and unwind and to roll out the questions that are really meaningful. Forget all this crap we've been talking about that's really, really deep and meaningful and life-changing. We're gonna ask the questions that people really are are sitting on, um, and and maybe shitting on. Who knows? Um, and and so I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll crack the porcelain first with the the question that I want you to bend your brain on. And that is um, what is the most innovative or creative breakthrough you've had while going potty?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, good lord. Uh I have. I don't know that I've clocked that, Al.

SPEAKER_05

We know this, which is why we don't actually prepare for this. And you can fully say, I don't know. But if you had to take a guess, if you had to say, wow, well, there was this thing, what would it be? I mean, there's there's no way we can fact check this, by the way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I I have absolutely no idea, but I'll just make up that I came up with my entire concept for my last book. How about that?

SPEAKER_05

So, so you you know how spitball in here. No, no, that's totally okay. That's totally okay. Uh is is there an idea that you've heard of from people that that where that has been innovative or creative that people have told you they created while it was an idea that came to them on the John?

SPEAKER_02

I cannot say that anybody has ever told me that they about an idea that they had when they were sitting on the potty.

SPEAKER_04

I I think that's gonna change after this show. Someone's gonna come up to you and you're gonna have to you're gonna have to call in and uh share that with us.

SPEAKER_02

Haven't you heard people?

SPEAKER_04

So I got an easier I got an easier question. I got an easier question.

SPEAKER_02

People don't have these conversations with me. I do have a friend who's very into poop stories, but people don't have don't have conversations with me about you know what they were doing when they were sitting, you know, thinking about when they were sitting on the toilet.

SPEAKER_05

But yet haven't you heard people Mark, I promise you go ahead. But haven't you heard people say the the phrase, oh I do my gr best thinking on the toilet?

SPEAKER_02

I confess that I have not.

SPEAKER_05

I must have some really weird friends.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, my husband has very schatological humor, but that's his, you know, that's that's his domain.

SPEAKER_05

All right. Well, we have stumped our first guest.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, I don't know that that's ever happened.

SPEAKER_01

Um so my ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding.

SPEAKER_04

Uh so my question is what is your go-to song that you sing in the bathroom?

SPEAKER_02

Uh oh, you know, uh, well, I sing in the shower.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, that's fine. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02

So I actually tur at the the after I take my shower, I turn the water to cold.

SPEAKER_06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02

And I have written a song to my uh 10 guideposts. And I sing that so that I, you know, it's the proper amount of time to be under the cold water. And I sing that.

SPEAKER_04

Huh. Wow. Well, that's that's interesting. That's pretty damn creative. That's that's pretty cool. I thought you were gonna say that you sang Ice Ice Baby by Vanilla Ice, but you know, uh your your own song sounds cool too.

Key Takeaways And Golden Formula

SPEAKER_05

What um what do you think? Um and this is hey, I I I co helped co-found an improv company. I've drov. You've done improv. Yeah, we're we gotta find a way to do improv together, but we're gonna do in this moment right now, okay? So here we go. Uh there's a game in improv called what if and you create a scenario um that's that's normal, like you're in a bathroom, and then you have another thing, and and so um, and then you say, Well, what if this happened? or what if this was this? So here we go. We're gonna play what if with you, Melissa. Okay. All right, you're in a bathroom, and what if instead of uh a toilet paper roll, it was a guitar. Ooh, and I'm supposed to and I'm supposed to just What song would you what song would you play uh with that guitar?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I would play chitty chitty bang bang, oh yeah, chitty chitty bang bang, oh yeah, chitty chitty bang bang, oh yeah, chitty chitty bang bang, oh yeah, chitty chitty bang bang, chitty chitty bang bang, chitty chitty bang, bang. Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Hey, I hope right now there are some people in the stall and they are some they are humming along and they're they're going, is it chitty chitty or shitty shitty bang bang?

SPEAKER_06

I don't know.

SPEAKER_05

Right, last one, last one I've got, and then Mark, unless you got one. All right, so what if toilets when they flush didn't swirl water, they swirled blank, fill it in. And what would you what what what what should it be?

SPEAKER_01

What if they swirled cats and dogs?

SPEAKER_05

Oh my gosh. What if they swirl and if they did swirl cats and dogs, what would you do?

SPEAKER_02

I would rescue the cats and dogs.

SPEAKER_05

And what would your name be after you rescued them? What would the title of your book? What would the title of your book be after you've rescued the cats and dogs from the swirling toilet with the with the toilet paper that was a guitar?

SPEAKER_00

It would be Melania, cat and dog rescuer from the toilets.

SPEAKER_05

Mark, are you gonna still be on the show after this? Are you gonna still allow me to have any guests and ask any questions? I plead a fifth. I almost feel like we should be doing WWPD. What would Phyllis do? Yeah, I I yeah, we probably should have.

SPEAKER_02

You were gonna ban me from the show. No, no, I'm being banned.

SPEAKER_05

You're gonna take over as the new host uh with Mark and Phil. Yeah, I was out. All right, Mark, bring us home with uh with some questions before we uh give give our dear wonderful guest the chance to share her the glory of what of what she's doing.

Where To Find Melissa And Book Launch

SPEAKER_04

Uh I I honestly think we should get into the tips piece. Like I after coming out of that, I you know, I I I I want to say thank you. Um I know we're gonna run into you know the the last thoughts that you're gonna provide the the audience as as we leave uh the stall today, but I you know what I I gathered from the conversation, I I typically do the recaps, is you know, whether you think that you're a creative or you don't think that you're a creative, we we we tend to run into roadblocks. And you know, when we overthink and we over-complexify a situation, um we don't allow to solve the problem, which is the complication. And so without being able to solve the complication, which is the problem that leads to the the complex, um we're we're just stuck. We're stuck in that bathroom. And so with some humor, with some play, and with some tips that you're gonna share, it allows us to release the need to be perfect, release the the uh the formality of of what we're building and and go solve some problems in a fun way so we love what we do again. Does that seem true?

SPEAKER_02

I love that.

SPEAKER_04

Alright, cool. So on that note, you've referenced even singing to the pillars. Um could you could you share two, three tips that you want to make sure that this audience knows as they go back out into their world?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I I'd like to share what I refer to as my golden formula, which is self-awareness plus self-compassion, which we referenced a little bit earlier, equals the key to everything good. I'll say it again. Self-awareness self-awareness plus self-compassion equals the key to everything good.

SPEAKER_04

That's the mic drop right there.

SPEAKER_05

That's incredible. Yeah, that is that is sit on that, man. That's and I love the simplification of the complexity of yeah. So uh tell us, you know, we're gonna post stuff in the show notes, um, and and this show will drop probably in February-ish, uh, I think, or maybe early March. So tell us where can people, where do you most want people to find you, first of all? We'll talk about the book in a minute, but where do you want people to most find you?

SPEAKER_02

Uh the best place to go is my website, which is my name, Melissa Dinwiddy.com.

SPEAKER_05

That's M-E-L-I-S-S-A-D-I-N-W-I-D-D-I-E. So it's Melissa Dinwiddie, not dinwittle, dinwitty.com. I've I've done that, melissa dinwittle.com.

SPEAKER_02

I and I did buy that domain and have it redirect.

SPEAKER_05

No, it's great. It was great. I was like, oh, did I did I spell it wrong? So um very good. That's that's smart. I should have bought I should have bought it with two M's for me for Emirate because people always add two M's. Oh yeah. Um social, uh any particular social handles. I mean, you do some great work on LinkedIn, but anything particular you want people to follow up on?

SPEAKER_02

Uh LinkedIn is really the main one where I'm active. I also have a YouTube channel, which is also my name. And I'm on Instagram, but that one uh breaks the pattern. I'm at a underscore creative underscore life.

SPEAKER_05

So Melissa, you've got the book coming out. Uh tell us about that. When is it launching and how can people get it?

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, thanks for asking. So the subtitle of the book is 52 micro experiments for brave leaders who want to unstick teams, spark ideas, and build what's next. And it is the bulk of the book is these 52 micro experiments, these little experiments that you can run with your team in anywhere from five minutes to 25 minutes. Some of them, a few of them are to be run over the course of a week, but most of them can be run in a you know a team meeting or something like that. So it's really designed for leaders, managers, directors, VPs who want to build in more innovation in their organization, in their team, but don't want to have to pull their team away from their daily operations in order to do that. So it's it's designed so that you can run through one experiment a week over the course of a year, uh, or just open the book and pick an experiment. I've got all sorts of protocols in the book that you can you can use. I've got um guides to help you determine which experiment to use according to what challenges you have going on in your team or in your organization. Uh, lots of ways, different ways to use the book, and it's really designed to help you build more innovation in in your um in your team in your organization um in a very hands-on effective way.

SPEAKER_05

Awesome. People are gonna go to work and they're gonna have fun, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, without without uh one of my reviewers uh wrote without it being um, you know, woo-woo.

SPEAKER_05

No woo-woo. No woo-woo. Awesome. When is it launching and how can people get it?

SPEAKER_02

So the soft launch, that's when the Kindle will be available, is February 13th. And then the official paperback launch is March 10th.

SPEAKER_05

And uh they'll be able to get that Amazon. Where can they buy the book?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, at that point you'll be able to get it on Amazon, and then it will be available at other places after that. And you can go to innovation at workbook.com to find more information about it. And you can also just go to my website, Melissa Dinwiddy.com, and you'll be able to find out information about it there.

SPEAKER_05

Well, hey, listen, um, this has been an utter joy. And you stepped into the stall with everything that I knew you already would, but the joy of just the authenticity and sharing so much of yourself. And uh this this is would you come back in the stall with us?

SPEAKER_02

I'd love to anytime.

SPEAKER_05

Awesome. We'll have to get a full improv section in the stall. We need to figure out how to do that. Improv in the stuff we could do that. We can figure that out. Improv in the stall. Ooh, that would be fun. Right? Yeah, right? Have a ball. Some improv in the stuff in the stall. We'll invite you all. Hey, listen, we'll give you a call. Don't drop the ball. You know it, baby. See how I did that, Mark? I got it in. I got it in. I saw it. I saw your big shit eating grid, too.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I like it.

SPEAKER_05

This is the complexity of toilet paper.

SPEAKER_04

Did you say toilet paper?

Head Shot

Al Emerick

Host
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Mark Pollack

Host
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Phyllis Martin

Host
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Melissa Dinwiddie

Guest