The Complexity Of Sacrifice: Words, Definitions, and the Conundrum of Intent

We use the word sacrifice like it’s a simple badge of honor, but once we slow down and inspect it, everything gets complicated fast. Coming off the emotional weight of Memorial Day and living around a strong military community, we start with the obvious: service members and their families give up time, stability, safety, and sometimes their lives. Then we ask the uncomfortable question: why do we use the same word for skipping a workout, building a career, or choosing a healthier meal?

From there, we dig into the real tension: is “sacrifice” the right word for most of what we describe day to day, or are we actually talking about choice, commitment, and opportunity cost? We debate whether sacrifice requires selflessness without expecting a return, and how “investment” changes the story when there’s a future payoff. We also explore a mindset shift from transactional sacrifice (giving up X to get Y) to transformative sacrifice (choices that shape identity and strengthen community), plus how compounded benefits show up over time in habits, relationships, and money.

The biggest takeaway is not a neat definition but a better set of questions: where does the complexity live, before the decision or after it? How does the label you choose affect your gratitude, your resentment, or your pride? And are we accidentally using “sacrifice” as performative martyrdom when we really mean “I chose this”?

Subscribe for the follow-up, share this with someone who debates words for fun, and leave a review. Then tell us: what does “sacrifice” mean to you?

Transcript

Welcome To The Stall

SPEAKER_03 0:01

And I wish we could go back to a time when things weren't so complicated.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Welcome to the complexity of toilet paper, the podcast that dives into the everyday moments where we overthink, hesitate, or just get dominated. Through honest conversations, unexpected insights, and a whole lot of humor, your hosts Phyllis Martin, Mark Pollock, and Al Emmerich are here to help you roll with it and make your life a little less complicated. One conversation at a time. Right, dude. The beauty of this is its simplicity. Speaking of which, it's time to enter the stall. Put the lid down, or not, depending. Get comfortable and roll with it. Oh, worry not, dear friend. It's really quite simple. This is the complexity of toilet paper! Let me ask you something.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

What did you give up to be here today recording this? Mark? Phyllis? Person in the potty? What are you sacrificing right now so that your ears can be filled with the melodious tones of this podcast? What is one thing that you would never ever ever think you would sacrifice? Give up, swap for something else, so that something else could happen in your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Mark, I think you should go back two questions. That last one even threw me.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah, I well the show is called The Complexity of Toilet Paper. So I wanted to put a freaking exclamation point at the end of the statement, which is when we make sacrifices, sometimes it's harder than we think, and we make it harder than we even realize it to be. Because there's nothing simple about sacrifice if you ask the average person. Because tied to the concept of sacrifice is what you're giving up versus what you're gaining. And as a result, so often sacrifice is not as black and white as the holiday would say it is. And thus, that's why we are sitting here today recording this show shortly on the heels of Memorial Day, to which I was thinking about sacrifice, and we decided let's do a show on the complexity of sacrifice and all, or at least begin to unpack some of its different meanings. But I probably could have opened with that. It

Memorial Day And Everyday Sacrifice

SPEAKER_02 3:06

may have been clearer, but you know. We got here uh a year and some 27, 9, 30 episodes later, Al's noodle is still frickin' twisted. Hi, my name is Al Emmerich. I'm Mark Pollock.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

I'm Phyllis Martin.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

And this is the complexity of toilet paper. Welcome to the joyride to unravel life's complexities similar to a roll of toilet paper, which by common standards is really quite simple. Yet there are many uses for toilet paper. We won't get into them today, but this show is about unraveling the complexities of life that we all face. And if you're joining us for the first time, welcome to what we call the stall. Uh, it's a crowded stall, even though the three of us have been here since the very beginning. Uh, no guest today except you and your brain. And what we really wanted to have a conversation with you about is sacrifice. Um seriously, uh, that's that's what kind of lit this conversation off. We we were coming fresh off recording this, even though it's going to come out way after Memorial Day. But we we started thinking about what is that? It's a celebration of sacrifice, right? The sacrifice of our military. Um, and for me, and um and Phyllis used to live in Jacksonville, and Mark uh lived in Jacksonville, lives close enough. We are in a military region. We've got a couple of military bases in Jacksonville, Florida, Orange Park, uh, we've got Kings Bay, Georgia, the sub-bases. There's military throughout the state of Florida and down in Tampa, Air Force bases. And so if you haven't grown up or been or lived in a military town, maybe you may not realize, uh, or if you don't have a connection to the military, that there's so much more than the sacrifice of lives. There's the sacrifice of time, of relocation, family, uh, career, um the sacrifice of dreams in in many, many ways that goes with that. The sacrifices that children make, the sacrifices that families make to help other families. And and that just kind of got us all thinking like, whoa. Um sometimes we just do. We don't even think about it. We make a sacrifice because it's the right thing to do. And I and and yet, and yet we sometimes overthink simple sacrifices that could save our lives. Eating more healthfully, exercising regularly. Uh and we're by no means going to unpack this all today, but uh as usual, we don't have a script, we have a topic, we have a direction, and we have a challenge. And that challenge today is to hopefully wrap this show by helping you arrive at some questions about how you define sacrifice and what it means to you. So it's a little more simple, one conversation at a time.

Does “Sacrifice” Fit At All?

SPEAKER_02 6:12

So, Phyllis.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

What does sacrifice mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Oh, you know, listening to your, do we call it a preamble? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Monologue?

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Monologue, thank you. Diatribe?

SPEAKER_04 6:26

Diatribe, and you're a brain dump.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

I'm struck by um something, which is in the context of the sacrifice that um people who choose to go into the military make. I am sitting here like with a conundrum in my head about, which is where all conundrums live, by the way. About, you know, there are we all define sacrifice differently, and we all say that we make sacrifices in different ways. And I'm kind of questioning if that's really the right word. So people say to me, you know, you sacrificed your childhood to take care of your mother. I don't know that I I don't know that I see it that way. I see it as I loved my mother and I took care of her. And I don't know that I now see it as a, I don't know that I ever actually saw it as a sacrifice. Do I think part of my childhood was lost because of that? Yes, that is, that would be very, very true. But is it a sacrifice? Like I feel like that has some kind of different notation. And it honestly, Al, just in light of the way that you opened, that you opened the show, which was great. I mean, absolutely great. Or in the context of um eating what you want to eat versus eating healthy, is it really a sacrifice? Is it? I like I don't I don't know. I think it's a like we say it's a sacrifice because of the context eating healthy has, but we gave it that context. In other places and other spaces, it's just food and you make those decisions. So um that's that's a great way of saying I have I don't know. I have to think about it now. You give up something, but in the context of sacrifice, do you also get something?

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Well, the dictionary says the act of giving up.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

You couldn't tell me that first. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

This is well, but no, I think good God, we just went through the jugular right away. I mean, there's the there's Merriam-Webster dictionary definition, but then there's the interpretation of how sacrifice lives in our lives. So here we go, sacrifice, Mac Merriam-Webster dictionary. A, the act of giving up or losing something of value for the sake of something else. Uh B, something of value given up or lost for the sake of something else. Uh, an act of offering to a deity something precious, um, something offered in sacrifice, loss, goods sold at a sacrifice. Sacrifice bunt, you're sacrificing to advance a runner. Um the transitive verb is uh to give up or lose something, especially for an ideal belief or end, to offer as a sacrifice, to sell at a loss, and blah, blah, blah, blah. So uh I mean, there's the technical definition. I here's what I took from what you said. There's the technical definition, but then there's the intent and the principle behind it. That's what I think.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

And those definitions ring true. Sorry, Mark, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

No, I just I just want to comment that I I think that that was just really profound, um Phyllis, uh as as far as how you look at sacrifice. Uh take take the dictionary out of it. To me, uh, you know, I feel very much aligned to what what you had uh had to say, Phyllis. When I think of sacrifice, it's not I'm gonna I I'm gonna um I'm gonna sacrifice this time because uh or this money, and I'm gonna start a business and I'm investing in this thing to for it to give me something. I don't think that's a sacrifice. I think it's dedication, I think it's a commitment, I think it's a it's a goal, and you're willing to invest in yourself or invest in other people, but you're looking for an outcome, a positive outcome for yourself. When I think of sacrifice, I think it's really taking something that's valuable of yours and not expecting anything in return for it, right? That to me is sacrifice. And and so when I think of like a a parent or and you had to make a decision to take care of your mom, you you weren't looking to gain anything from that, right? Um that's a you you gave up your time, effort, energy, potentially some of your own dreams. That that that is a a sacrifice because you weren't in my book looking for anything. If you're looking for a return in that of people, oh I I sacrificed years to build this business. No, you you invested. And and so I think we have to be really careful in the word sacrifice. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Well, does that does that same lip litmus then stand if you're risking your life? If I'm a military, you know, I mean if you're a military No, no, no, no. If you are the military person, if you are a military person like my dad was a a B-52 bombardier in the Air Force. God bless he survived uh and you know, thank God. I mean, died for another reason, but but I mean the man sat, he didn't choose to, I mean, that's where they put him, and he sat in the bottom of a turret a B-52 bomber with a turret gun. Wow. And he could have been blown out of the sky. For sure. Um for that, you know, there's the the things that come with the military. Um, there's all the folks who went through Vietnam and all the other wars that that have suffered the ills of war. They sacrificed something that they didn't expect potentially, but then also that they knew it was on the line. But is that still sacrifice? Of course it is.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

Absolutely. They they got it's not that they didn't get anything out of it, but they they were doing it for the good of so many, right? It wasn't their own personal good. They were probably thinking about their families, you know, and it and maybe we get somebody who's in the military and talk about that. But um, but I would imagine, and I'm not in the military, so I I struggle um making this comment on behalf, but I would imagine you you have a a greater need to serve others, and so you are sacrificing because you're not you're not really doing it for you. You're doing it for everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

And that might be a dream of yours to be in in that type of service of others, but I think it taps on the floor of what we we I started to say, which is what's the in the in the intent of it? Sacrifice functionally is the act of giving up something for something else. So so functionally

Investment, Service, And No Return

SPEAKER_02 13:20

it it makes sense. Yeah. And I love the baseball analogy, right? No baseball coach ever wants to lose a runner on base. No team ever says, Oh, good, we can get an out. But a sacrifice fly advances a runner, it it it moves the cause along and it gets them closer to a goal of scoring a run. Um and I think oddly, it's not like we thought about this. That's that's what we do. Like we we quote unquote sacrifice time for our children. We sacrifice time to produce this show. Um the functional word is sacrifice, but what's the mindset? I think the nuance is when it becomes resentful. And too all too often, what I see is we celebrate the sacrifices that are obvious, which we should, the military sacrifices, um, but we forget the small little nuanced sacrifices that people make for the betterment of society. And we don't talk enough about that. But when we do talk about sacrifice, it's usually strapped with some sort of a negative. Like I had to sacrifice this for that, versus how'd you say it in the beginning, Phyllis? You said, Oh God, I wish I could repeat it. Um like when you were in the nonprofit sector, which still are, like you don't do do you view the time that you when you're not at home with Tim or you're not at home with Finn? I just realized how close they almost rhyme. Uh Tim and Finn, like a radio show. Is that a sacrifice?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

No, I don't that's that's my work. I mean, that's a choice and that's my work, and um, I get something. Um I get something from that. I don't feel like that is a choice. Also, I I like I'm hesitant to say this, but I'm gonna say it. Like I have high sensitivity. I'm not sacrificing my life. My life is not on the line when I go to work every day. People in the military are putting their lives on the line for the betterment of people they will never ever know for the for the of for the betterment and the the protection of ideals that have created this country. And that's, I think, where I was coming from when I and when you asked me the question that is a sacrifice. Like that is that is for sure, in my mind, a sacrifice. You are willing to trade your life. Maybe trade isn't the right word, putting your life on the line for a nation of people. Like the magnitude is overwhelming to me. And I I am very sensitive about this, um, um just in the best possible way. But when I go to work, um my that was my not nothing, you know, what is at risk? My reputation that I might say something incorrectly or I might make a mistake and get fired. That's like, no, it's not a sacrifice. It's it's actually a gift to be able to do this kind of work. Um, and hopefully, you know, do it, do it well.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Is it is it more than that the benchmark for sacrifice? Like I, you know, we hear so many people say, Oh, I sacrificed this to go to Disney, or I sacrificed this to go to this conference, and it's like again, I think we're talking close to around the same thing. Like, what are you really sacrificing versus a parent who does sacrifice to care for them, even though it's the even though it's the thing that they had to do and they needed to do and it was the right thing to do, there's still an opportunity cost. That's another b way to talk about this, is opportunity cost, right? But but I think it's so flippantly thrown around and discarded today that we don't really consider their choices. Yeah. And that could sound judgy, and I'm fully aware you could be listening to this and going, ah, it's a little judgy. I I'm just I'm not condemning one way or the other. I I think we're talking about this because if I could give one walk away before we even get to that point, the walk away is for us to intentionally ask, is it sacrifice? What am I really giving up?

SPEAKER_04 17:48

When I think of complexity, right, and and what makes it complex, I I I do go back to this mind game that we're trying to play, and I think it's in the realm of semantics. But I I got my MBA as an adult. I had to give up time with my kids, I had to give up time on weekends, I had to miss some uh fun event stuff. I could go back and say, Oh, look at all the stuff that I sacrificed in order to do this. Or I could have the mindset that I prioritized and allocated time, and based at that point in my life, I prioritized getting an education so later on I could provide better for my family. And then I invested in myself to do that. I didn't sacrifice anything, right? I did lose out on time with them at that point to provide for them a better future. And and and so I I struggle with that word because to Phyllis's point earlier, when when we come off Memorial Day and we think of the sacrifice that our our military and first responders even, you know, uh day on on the daily basis, these are groups that run into fires, run into crimes, run into bad things happening, um that's a that's a sacrifice. And it's a sacrifice for their families as well. And and the they have also made that commitment that they're willing to to miss out on on a on a particular future for the betterment of society. And there's a quote that and I'll stop talking for a second, but there's a quote that I heard it was part of a television show, but I I loved this quote. And I think I think it kind of relates. A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

We say that, Mark, in the sector all the time. Like people are planting seeds today for trees that they will never whose shade they will never sit under.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

It's true.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Can you say that again, Mark? Sure. A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they will never sit in.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Or old women.

SPEAKER_04 20:08

Or old women. That's you know, if I was making the quote, I would have when when people plant trees. How about that? A society grows great when people plant trees

Transactional Vs Transformative Thinking

SPEAKER_04 20:18

whose shade they know they'll never sit in.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Alright. Um I'm gonna throw out uh this is directly from um an AI conversation I was having earlier, but it says society has fundamentally misunderstood sacrifice by viewing it primarily as a transaction, giving up something to get something, rather than a transformative practice that shapes identity and builds community. Let's just pause there for a minute.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I think that's what I said. I'm just guessing it is.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

No, it is teasing you, teasing you. No, but it's it's it's this beautiful uh by the way, Mark, your mic, your light's really hot in your forehead, and you look like you're glowing, and we may need to go ahead and bring you into like one of those anti-radiology better you than me tonight, Mark. Man, I'm just glowing. I'm just glowing because of the topic. Yes. It is. You're still hot as can be. Like your head looks like an X-ray machine. Oh, leave him alone. Um, that's all it is. I'm just ugly. And the light accentuates how ugly I am. Ugly. All right.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

Now you can just see my teeth.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Only people watching this on YouTube are gonna know what the hell we're talking about. Sorry about that, Apple. Mark is totally gone. Mark's been gone forever. I'm still here. Mark has sacrificed his looks for the show.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Mark, come back to the page.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Let's so let's come back to this concept of transactional versus transformative. If I think about um like how we view obstacles, right? Like one of the manifestations that I use, and Tony Robbins talked about it. It's you know, one of the manifestations is I choose to view obstacles as opportunities. Opportunities for growth, right? And that's a mindset, right? It's a growth mindset of what stands before me, I will learn from. What stood behind me, I have learned from and will continue to grow from. But you can't look back. And so if you've got a sacrifice, we're looking at it as this transaction, this exchange, almost like money, but what is it really what is it really getting you? Um then it goes on to say it's not just religious appeasement, obviously we know this, um, but then performative versus meaningful. Modern society often equates sacrifice with suffering or performative martyrdom rather than quiet, deliberate choices to prioritize others.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, like I can see people rolling their eyes. Our listeners, hopefully they're not rolling their eyes because it's nuance and it's language. Doesn't it always come back to language? And I I could I think it's how over time we have chosen, whether we are conscious of that or not, to use the word sacrifice. And that's really what's standing out to me um in the illumination of the conversation. Um, even for myself, I'm not really sure I have really thought about it in this way until I'm sitting here thinking about it, um, in a, in a, in this meaningful, in this meaningful moment.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Aaron Powell Think about it in money, right? And and I don't remember if we've talked about this in a previous show or not. I'm pretty sure I brought it up, but one of the concepts that in 2025 was my biggest aha is the theory of compounded interest. Not just monetarily, but yes, it was written about in the psychology of money, and it's a great concept. Buffett's talked about it. Great financiers over the years of economists have talked about it. But uh also it's it's um talked about in uh by what's his name who wrote um atomic habits, um, and many others. And that is we want the now and we're not willing to wait. And so when you sacrifice, you're giving up quote unquote something, even if the net gain in the long term is going to be of greater value, but you don't want to wait for that. And and so a series of choices and decisions to sacrifice TV time, quote unquote, to go run, or sacrifice a dinner out to save some money, over time, those choices will have a compounded benefit that will help you save money, help you be healthier. Um spending time with your kids, you know, and so that's the relational side of what's the gain at the end of it for a higher purpose, a greater purpose.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

I'm gonna have an unpopular question to both of you.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Oh, I can't wait.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

So Phyllis is licking her chops. I so for the last, I don't know, 20 minutes, I feel like we've talked about semantics in a lot of way. I don't know what that means from the complexity of of sacrifice, right? So if I'm investing in my kid, then then I'm I'm gonna make that I'm gonna make that, I'm personally just speaking for, I'm gonna make that choice if if that's how we define this thing. I feel I feel like we're just trying to justify who gets to use the word sacrifice and who doesn't get to use the word sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

I'm curious where's the complexity in sacrifice? Because we don't by nature want to make sacrifices and we spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get around having to make the sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

So here's what I think. This will be maybe even more unpopular than your question, Mark. So get ready. But wait, there But wait, there's more. Are we really talking about sacrifice

Choice, Life Or Death, And Aftermath

SPEAKER_00 26:02

or are we really talking about choice? To your point of like machination and and nuance, uh nuance of a word, because that's really what's resonating with me. Maybe the show will never air, by the way. But but the complexity, and we've talked about this on other shows, about making a choice. Like it's hard to make a decision because it feels like you're giving up something sometimes to get something else. And yeah, and I would say um yes, and that is life. That feels different to me than sacrifice. Like sacrifice feels like life or death or really, really, I I don't want to say it this way, but I think I'm gonna losing something. Making a selfless selfless, selfless, selfless, delicious, selfless, I don't know. Uh selfless decision. Maybe because it's you think it's the right thing to do, maybe you have to come in and it like to save a life, like something like that. Um, something like that. Maybe what I was trying to say in the beginning is is is actually what I am saying now. I think the complexity, um, if you if we were really like if we're honing in on a depth of sacrifice um is likely sitting in making that decision, right? How do how do you actually make a decision to stop part of your life? Like really stop part of your life, or make a life-changing decision that in some ways may hurt you, or something like that. The complexity of getting to that decision may be difficult. I mean, there may be complexity in getting that decision. There may be not. There may be complexity in how you feel after you make the decision or a lifetime or a lifetime later.

SPEAKER_04 28:08

Yeah. Yeah, I I agree with you because some of the things are just life choices. Did I want to go and get my graduate degree? Well, I had to make some choices and I had to give up time in certain areas to do that. But then there's the more complex piece of, well, this choice that I'm making, could it end my life? Right? Could it could it impact negatively the people who are around me? How do I make that choice? How do I know in my heart it's the right choice and still make that choice? Um yeah, I I I think that is an area to explore is how do people go through that thought process when making those types of decisions? Not the should I give up some time and spend more time over here or should I invest in this and hope to God one day this is going to turn out for me? That to me is not sacrifice, that's just a choice, right? But but I think you've hit to the heart of it, which is how do people have to go through the decision-making process for a true sacrifice?

SPEAKER_02 29:08

And I think sometimes it might be you said this, Mark. Sometimes it's just distinctly obvious because it is life or death, or sometimes it's distinctly obvious because like of course you would do make that sacrifice for your child, or and there's no I almost think about it like when Tyler Schultz was on the show and we asked him about how hard this was uh for him to go against the grain and to go against his family, and for him, it was like, well, they're just the moral compass is only been in this one direction. There is no choice, it's very black and white. Um, and in that case, it was what he's he he stood for. Um so is that a sacrifice? Well, by his standards, I've we're back, we're back to the the world others would call it, but no, I mean it was it was a choice that stood in front of him. So technically, yes, it's a sacrifice, but I don't think I don't think we can have the conversation around sacrifice and complexity without understanding how the person views what's behind the sacrifice or selflessness versus selfishness.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I actually am gonna say something.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Um Wait a minute, are you gonna be more controversial? Because so far I don't think we've really tipped the scale of controversy.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Because I'm I'm wondering if like the show attached to this show, which would be really important, is I'm what because I feel like now the complexity is after the decision is made to make the sacrifice. Once you've made the sacrifice, I'm wondering like where complexity sits in your life at that at that moment in time, like after the decision's made.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

That's what we need to do. We need we need to follow up this show with people who have made the sacrifices we're talking about and ask them, was this complex? Yeah. I mean, seriously. I mean, like, I would love right now to ask a soldier how do you define sacrifice? I would love to add I don't think that's the question.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I mean, maybe it's part of the question now, but with complexity being the point of the show, what in your life became more complex or what in your life is complex because of the decision you made to do a thing?

SPEAKER_04 31:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

So let's ask each other that. What's a decision you've made and your life became more complex as a result of that? That included sacrifice. And I'm nothing. I'll I'll give you an example.

When “Sacrifice” Creates Regret

SPEAKER_02 32:01

I mean, I chose to pursue a business. Um prior to this conversation, I wouldn't have ever thought about it through this lens. Thank you to the both of you for screwing my brain up. Um but I remember saying to people, like, yeah, hey, listen, I sacrificed a lot of time away from the kids. Uh I sacrificed uh now I got so much in return, both from, you know, the joy, the freedom, some of the experiences. I mean, I've been blessed to dream a thousand dreams of of a life that many people were would love to have had experienced. Um in the moment, though, it felt like a sacrifice. And the complexity came from what was the fallout of that sacrifice. When I gave quote unquote up something else for something else, that opportunity cost um came with some some big tickets. And and thus I became to overthink a lot of my decisions because I was afraid of sacrificing.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Um so just to just to argue argue a point, I would say you made some decisions in your life on where you wanted your direction to go, and you took a chance. And some things worked out the exact way you wanted, and some things didn't, and and those decisions that you made had impact on where you invested your time and where people invested their time with you. But to me, that's not a sacrifice, that was a decision that you made for a direction in your life. And and and and and and were things lost because of that? Important things lost because of that? Uh yes. But but in every decision that we make, we have the potential to gain or lose, but that doesn't make it a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

So I'm gonna I'm gonna give you an example of what pops into mind. Yeah, I'm I yes to that. Um there used to be some saying, I'm gonna get it like slightly wrong. It was in the late 70s or maybe mid-70s for women. It was like you can have it all. I think that was what it was. Like you can used to be on keychains, like you can have it all. And later, I think very wisely, um, women started saying, you can have it all. You just might not be able to have it all at the same time. And that's how like what pops up for me when you're talking. You, you we all make decisions. There, I just think there's like a fallacy about um, I think there's a fallacy about how much time we we have in the day to do stuff. And there are also external pressures. I mean, I'm not minimizing any of the reality of people's lives, but but in the context of this particular conversation, uh I'll use this. I made a decision with you all that I wanted to be part of this podcast. I wanted to do it. Am I sacrificing anything? No. Has my schedule changed? Yes. Do I have to reorganize when I'm gonna work out? Yes, because that's like the window, right? Like that's that's like the one thing. But is it a sacrifice? No, it was a decision I made because I wanted to do a thing. Am I a little more tired? Sure. Is it a sacrifice? No, it's not.

SPEAKER_04 35:27

And here's an interesting caveat that like add-on to that, because I love what you're saying. When you look at it later on, so if you call it a sacrifice, even though it's a choice, later on, if it's wildly successful, we have a bajillion listeners and you know, w whatever, um, whatever the success metric of the podcast is. Two bajillion. Um does does that mean none of this was a sacrifice? And alternatively, if it doesn't work out, right, which I don't believe it won't, you know, but if it doesn't, then then was it a sacrifice? Right. So you can't change the definition based on the success or failure of a project. It it can't be a sacrifice because the decisions you made didn't work out.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

All right, so let me dig the shovel a little deeper. Um we have two diabetics and we had a wonderful guest, Lori, on our show. Wow, and Finn is very, very Finn, he's like he's sacrificing mommy time.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Finn is like, that's what he's going.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

That's what's happening.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Sacrificing a bone and some food. Um, all right. So when Lori uh Day was on the show and her son is dying. In fact, Lori, if you're listening to this, please comment on the thread. And if not, we're gonna tag you because I'm really interested to see, because we can't answer for you. But what is your your view? Like uh, because that was a parent sacrificing, quote unquote, as a parent who had to adjust, a parent who had to pivot. You, Mark. Um what's your response?

SPEAKER_04 37:10

I'll I'll answer from my perspective. I have sacrificed nothing for Harrison's diabetes.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

What about as Harrison sacrificed?

SPEAKER_04 37:18

Nothing. I I think in fact, and and it isn't gonna be the case for I mean, there's one, he had no decision. It's you know, uh type one is an autoimmune disease. He had no decision to make that sacrifice or not make a sacrifice, but I think it comes back to a choice. What are you gonna do with it? Right? Are are you gonna say, well, I have this thing and I, you know, I gotta make all these decisions now? He's making the same decisions that he would have had he not had it. Um so I I as a parent don't see the things that I've had to do as a sacrifice. They're a choice that I freely want to make, um uh and to see him happy. I the choices I made to go back to school as an adult were for my children. I don't see that as a sacrifice, I see that as a as a plus. There's nothing I feel like even taking care of my mom, uh, like Phyllis was talking about, or I don't see any of that as a sacrifice. None of it. It was just decisions of I could choose I could or I I could choose I didn't. And my choice said I was gonna do that thing, and whatever I lost in it, it didn't it wasn't a real loss.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

I'm really proud of this conversation. Like this is like this is like one of those conundrums that I never have traversed, and yet I think we've opened up so many different off-ramps to different perspectives, which I hope it elicits some some conversation.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Here's here's yes, Al, thank you for saying that. I'd yes. I I think like the complexity is more hinging around like I think there's a certain complexity in how we use language, how we use words to describe

Language, Martyrdom, And Self-Image

SPEAKER_00 39:20

things, but once we really sit down and talk about it, um we start to suss out like the complexity of language and what that means in today's context and what that means for how I would say quite honestly, we treat ourselves, people we love in our lives. Because if we're willing to use interchangeably choice and sacrifice, like what is that, what does that mean? And I'm like like what is that really I can hear my husband going, this is getting very deep, like in my head. That's what he's saying. But I think that's like I think there's something there there. It's you know, something I heard, I've heard a couple weeks ago or I've seen, who only, you know, God only knows where I saw it. But instead of saying I have to go to work, how about saying I get to go to work, right? I think there's like, and that's like a small thing, but it is language and words have meaning. And we it uh internalize that meaning, and then it becomes what it becomes.

SPEAKER_04 40:21

I I almost feel, and and this may cause some people to be like, I totally disagree, Mark, and and you're totally off base for saying this, but I almost feel we we would use a word like sacrifice to almost promote one's efforts, not as a not necessarily as a victim, but maybe, maybe you could use it that way of like look at all the things that I had to do. You know, like to your to your very honest question about um uh Harrison and type one. I yeah, oh man, I had to sacrifice money and hospital time, and oh, I had to take time off work and look at me and Maya Copa, and oh, look what I did, right? That's not how I look at that. And and I do think it comes down to how are you using these words in your life, is maybe the complexity itself. If if you're constantly looking at look at the things I have to give up for other people, maybe it's time to check the choices that you're making and uh uh just just accept the fact that not everything is a sacrifice. You do have choices, and you don't necessarily there are some things maybe you don't have a choice in. You you gotta figure out how to how to make the best of that. I don't know. I I mean I just I'm struggling with with that word sacrifice, especially especially as we think of of folks who give up so much, which is which is their their life for others.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

So I I put in a prompt, what is the relationship between choice, investment, and sacrifice? And I think this might be a good summary to bring it to like a a head here for a definite, like definite, like there's gonna be another show. Like we've talked about that a few times. Here we go. Choice is the foundational starting point, dictating sacrifice, what you quote unquote give up to fund uh what you invest in for a future return. So the core dynamics, choice, the conscious decision to pursue a specific path, goal, or opportunity out of all the available alternatives that assigns value to what you prioritize. Sacrifice, the intentional forfeiture of time, money, or comfort required to make that choice, quote unquote, the cost of doing business, and then investment, the active allocation of all that sacrificed effort into some sort of asset skill relationship or benefit for the long term for future growth. And I think contextually, that kind of summarizes the framework for what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 43:05

Like, you know, but it doesn't get at the complexity out. Like if we're thinking about this through the lens of complexity.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

No, no, the complexity is within those the complexity comes within the choice. We already know that just choice itself is complex. We make choice far more complex oftentimes than it does need to be. Um because you're making a first you have to make a choice. I'm sometimes choice is removed, right? You know, sure. Sure. It it's it's it's removed. Um but sometimes choice has lots of options, and and that that is complex. Okay. Well, then if you make that choice, the quote unquote definition of opportunity cost is if I make that choice, what are all these other alternatives that I'm not choosing? That's complex. That's where decision regret comes into play, right? And then not understanding or understanding that long term benefit. I think what we uh three of us agreed to here is that in thinking about quote unquote sacrifice, um we're we're not thinking about the long-term benefit and gain. And as a result, we're short-sighting uh our our choice or our decision and we're s calling it a sacrifice when in actuality it's a true long-term benefit. Um I think we should stop now. We may have just broken some people's brains, including our own. All right, Mark, what's what's what's one lucid or concrete idea that based on purely on your life's experiences, um you would offer up as a thought to folks as it relates to the concept. Your total take. No, no right, wrong, or indifferent. Your take on sacrifice.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

I I would say be careful of the words that you use, they're powerful.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

Did you get that on the right on the bottom of a buzz bazooka wrapper?

SPEAKER_04 45:04

I mean, yeah, I mean, but uh honestly, it could be from some bubble gum, it could it could be from a fortune cookie. Um be careful of the words that you use. Like uh I I don't believe that anything that we actually talked about today was sacrifice. I think we were trying to define something, and and I I I think that um I think when I I I think we just have to be careful with the words that we use. I I think that you make choices in life, those are your choices to make. Do you have to give things up? Yes. Is that a sacrifice? Not necessarily. So yeah. So my my fortune cookie, concrete, lucid ideas, be careful of the words that you use. Phil?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

Um I think um God, I had something really good when Mark was talking, and then I I got absorbed in what Mark was saying, and now I can't remember what I wanted to say, but I think it sounded something like this. I I think to s I think I think I'm

A Framework For Choice And Cost

SPEAKER_00 46:10

just gonna say what Mark said. I think there's something about the word sacrifice that feels very heavy. And so um I think it would be great for us to bring on some folks to talk about who have who that's what I was gonna say. Okay, it came back to me while I'm stalling for time. It did come back to me. I don't know that any of the three of us have really had to sacrifice much, if anything, in our lifetime. And so it would be really, I think, lovely to have somebody on who has made that decision or has really had to deeply sacrifice. And I think that would be a benefit for all of us, not just the three of us, but our listeners as well, particularly as we've spent a good portion of this show really talking about language and what I think is really the difference between sacrifice um and choice. And it may be that sacrifice is um uh subjective and everyone's gonna define it differently. Um, but but I think there are those um who have made ultimate sacrifices um or have come close or who have um I'll I'll just leave it that leave it at that.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Part of me absolutely disagrees and part of me fully agrees. And that's not me taking the middle by decision. I mean, it's still too much thought, Phil, but um I I would disagree that each of us has made sacrifices. No, I'm not gonna speak for you guys, I believe. Um but I also recognize that what I'm leaving with is what I hoped I would and what I hope listeners and uh I don't even like to call you listeners anymore, our our pot um stallmates walk away with, which is yes, caution on the words, language matters, we've always said that. But then also um really ask yourself what's the difference between choice and sacrifice and what's the intersection between the two. Um that's a heavy, heavy topic to start digging into. Um, but I think the framework of the answers to those is based on an individual's life life experiences. And um because I've seen not so much as dramatic in my life, even though I think it's existed. I've I've seen sacrifice, I've seen people uh who have made major sacrifices in their lives for others, uh, from literally body parts, you know, transfusions, things like that, putting their own lives at risk for another. Um, but then also simple things. But now I'm questioning to your point, is that and so that's what I leave it with is like I would leave people with ask yourself, what is complex about sacrifice and and how does that show up in your life? And we need to figure out who to bring back on the show, and I think we already started to to point towards a direction there.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Here's

Your Definition And The Next Conversation

SPEAKER_04 49:36

a hell of a topic. And sometimes we get some responses and sometimes we don't. But I think that this is one of those subjects where after you listen, please come to our Facebook page, please, please put your definition of sacrifice. What's it LinkedIn as well? LinkedIn or any other comments you have about it. Yeah, or or hey, disagree with us, agree with us, um, talk to us about it. We we really want to get your perspective, and I think this is a subject where um we could use your help, we could use your voice and and better understanding where where you see sacrifice, you know.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

And where it's complex.

SPEAKER_04 50:14

I I look at it as such a dramatic thing, right? I think of of you know, in the Old Testament, New Testament, right? All the people who sat like truly sacrificed a lot of stuff. Um but but you may look at it differently, and I think it's an opportunity for us to share that conversation. So please leverage our social media, please get active. Um, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love to be able to talk about those comments on on the next version of this.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

I agree.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

Thank you. So sacrifice something else to pay attention to us.

SPEAKER_04 50:50

And Al hasn't been listening at all through this entire thing. No.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

What? None me? All right. Well, this is chapter one of whatever the other chapter will be, because I think I can say of all the shows we've done, and they're they're voluminous now at this point, I don't know that I've ever left the show going, huh? Uh let's do this some more. Because this topic, I don't know. I don't know that we'll ever get closure on this topic. I'm leaving more confused than I started with. So how about that? I don't think are you confused though, Mark? No, not really. I'm not even sure this I don't even know who I am. I don't I wouldn't call this confusion. I think joking aside, this has been the AI show is provocative in in our world. I think this is in the best possible way provocative because it's provoking such a different layer of thought. Okay. That in its own right, people would look at this and go, holy shit, yeah, no one, no wonder you guys call this the complexity of toilet paper. Because this, to me, is probably one of the most complex shows we've done.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

I love the enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

And we'll end on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

This is the complexity of toilet paper.